Bestselling author and podcaster Ryan Holiday and former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis discuss America’s founding ideals and why they still matter 250 years later in the second part of a conversation recorded at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.

Holiday and Mattis explain why adherence to Stoic virtues is valuable in the military and how falling back on one’s first principles can help navigate a crisis.

They reflect on the philosophical ideas that influenced early American leaders like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. They also assess the importance of civic duty and participation in our democracy.

Using the example of Admiral James Stockdale, Mattis explains how members of the military respond to orders they believe are unjustified, and Holiday highlights the need for virtuous leadership as America looks to the future.

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