Kent talks with Alex Hillman of Stacking the Bricks about customer research, product fit, and the kind of product engineering that starts before implementation: understanding who you are serving, what they already believe, and how to make people feel understood instead of sold to.

They cover audience selection, observational research, helping in public, aligning your work with customer and business priorities, and why AI makes human judgment, trust, and synthesis more important rather than less.

Alex brings a product and marketing lens that fits this season perfectly: great products do not just solve technical problems, they help the right people recognize that you understand their world. The conversation starts with finding an audience and quickly turns into a practical way to build product sense inside a company: learn how customers describe themselves, observe where they gather, listen for the language they use, and speak from their priorities instead of your own taste.

The second half gets into Sales Safari, Stacking the Bricks' observational research practice. Alex explains why surveys and interviews can miss important signal, what to look for in real conversations, and how notes on jargon, pain, worldview, and recommendations can turn scattered internet conversations into useful product understanding. The through-line is simple and demanding: reduce the distance between you and the people you serve so your software, messaging, and decisions feel anticipated rather than manipulative.

Homework

• The next time coworkers or product teammates disagree about direction, step back and observe the conversation.
• Ask: who is this disagreement in service of? Is it serving the customer, the decision maker, the loudest person, or someone else?
• Practice this once a day or once a week, then use the patterns you notice to decide what you should contribute.

Resources

• Stacking the Bricks
• 30x500
• The Tiny MBA
• The Mom Test
• Alex Hillman on X

Guest: Alex Hillman

• Company: Stacking the Bricks
• GitHub: @alexknowshtml
• 𝕏: @alexhillman

Host: Kent C. Dodds

• Website: kentcdodds.com
• 𝕏: @kentcdodds
• GitHub: @kentcdodds
• YouTube: Kent C. Dodds
• Podcast: epicproduct.engineer

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Kent talks with Julius Marminge about building T3 Code in the agent-orchestrator wave: why speed still matters, why fast shipping does not mean shipping every possible feature, and how product judgment becomes more important as parallel AI workflows make implementation cheap.

They dig into dogfooding, core-product trade-offs, monetization pressure, customization vs defaults, and how to keep agent-built software maintainable over time.

Julius is building right in the middle of one of the fastest-moving product categories in software, and that gives this episode a useful tension: everything feels possible, but that does not mean everything belongs in the product. The conversation covers the shift from one-agent-at-a-time coding to orchestration, why T3 Code focuses so much on a fast app layer, and how Julius thinks about what should live in the core product versus forks, plugins, or future work.

The deeper lesson is about judgment under speed. Julius and Kent keep returning to the same idea from different angles: when agents can generate a lot of implementation quickly, the real work is deciding what is worth building, what will age well, and what future decisions you might accidentally box yourself out of.

Homework

• Take a step back and look at your product from the whole picture, not just the slice you currently touch.
• Before prioritizing a feature, ask whether it keeps the product maintainable long-term and whether it fits the job to be done for your users.

Resources

• T3 Code
• T3 Chat
• Julius Marminge — GitHub
• OpenCode

Guest: Julius Marminge

• GitHub: @juliusmarminge
• 𝕏: @jullerino

Host: Kent C. Dodds

• Website: kentcdodds.com
• 𝕏: @kentcdodds
• GitHub: @kentcdodds
• YouTube: Kent C. Dodds
• Podcast: epicproduct.engineer

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Kent talks with Jamon Holmgren about product engineering from a long-running consultancy lens: how working with clients, stakeholders, and non-technical users sharpens your product sense, and why those skills matter even more as implementation gets cheaper with AI.

They cover React Native, consulting, game design, stakeholder failures, feedback loops, and what software builders need to keep learning as the job shifts up the stack.

Jamon brings a useful mix to this conversation: founder of Infinite Red, longtime consultant, React Native specialist, and now indie game developer. That perspective makes the episode unusually practical. He has spent years watching where projects go wrong when product thinking is weak: bad requirements, unclear stakeholder alignment, UX details nobody owned, and engineers optimizing the wrong thing too early.

The thread through the whole episode is durability. Product engineering is not just about shipping faster with agents or getting better at a specific tool. It is about understanding people, shaping better requirements, recognizing when the human side of the workflow matters more than the code, and making decisions that keep paying off as the technology changes around you.

Homework

• Sit down with a non-technical person and watch them try to use a feature you built.
• Write down every hesitation, workaround, double-click, or confusing step you notice, then use that list to reprioritize what you fix next.

Resources

• Infinite Red
• Jamon Holmgren — site
• Night Shift Agentic Workflow
• Gunship Origins on Steam

Guest: Jamon Holmgren

• Company: Infinite Red
• GitHub: @jamonholmgren
• 𝕏: @jamonholmgren

Host: Kent C. Dodds

• Website: kentcdodds.com
• 𝕏: @kentcdodds
• GitHub: @kentcdodds
• YouTube: Kent C. Dodds
• Podcast: epicproduct.engineer

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