This is a in-person recorded podcast. The video is available on YouTube.

Michiel van Elk is an Associate Professor of Cognitive Psychology at Leiden University and head of the PRiSM Lab, where he studies the cognitive neuroscience of religion and psychedelic experiences. In this episode, we take a sober look at the current state of psychedelic science, moving beyond the cultural evangelism and media hype. Michiel critiques the biomedical model of psychedelic therapy, discusses the disappointing effect sizes in recent clinical trials, and highlights methodological issues like "breaking blind" and selection bias.

We explore why psychedelics are not a "reset" button for the brain but rather amplifiers of meaning, potentially functioning as "super placebos." The conversation covers the theoretical gaps in the field, contrasting the popular "entropic brain" hypotheses with the lack of solid empirical data. Michiel also outlines his vision for the future of the field: a move toward "sober science" that separates the study of these substances from the spiritual fervor that often surrounds them.

00:00 - Meet Michiel van Elk: Academic Background & The PRISM Lab

02:34 - The Role of Philosophy in Psychedelic Science

07:34 - Critiquing "Narrative Theories" in Psychology

11:09 - From Pentecostalism to Atheism: Michiel's Personal Journey

17:59 - Critiquing the Cognitive Science of Religion (CSR)

30:36 - "Absorption" & The Process of "Real-Making"

39:59 - The "More Real Than Real" Debate: Perception vs. Meaning

51:14 - The Flaws of the Biomedical Model & 4E Cognition

1:02:18 - Misconceptions & The Hype Bubble in Psychedelic Science

1:15:39 - The "Super Placebo" & The Meaning Response

1:19:09 - Can We Cultivate Transformation? Personality & Openness

1:22:39 - The "Einstein Effect" & Notable Research

1:28:59 - The Future: Toward a More "Sober" Psychedelic Science

1:33:44 - New Research: Magic Truffles & Natural Compounds

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Transcript:

https://tiagovf.com/posts/the-science-spirituality-of-psychedelics-with-michiel-van-elk-anagoge-podcast

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Follow me to get updates on the podcast and my work:

https://substack.com/@tiagovf

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The intro song is by Lief Sjostrom, titled Peril, from the album 'Impossible Parade'.
Website: https://liefsjostrom.com/
Album: https://liefsjostrom.bandcamp.com/album/impossible-parade

Arthur Versluis is the author of Platonic Mysticism: Contemplative Science, Philosophy, Literature, and Art and a Professor of Religious Studies at Michigan State University. His work bridges the gap between rigorous scholarship and the experiential reality of spiritual traditions. We examine the transformative power of art and its ability to mediate between the material and the transcendent. Versluis highlights the Hudson River School and the concept of "Luminism," explaining how the visual representation of light in nature mirrors the internal experience of mystical illumination.

The discussion navigates the complex relationship between the "forms" of Plato and the direct experience of the divine, moving beyond the common accusations of dualism often leveled at the Platonic tradition. We explore the "apophatic" or negative theological tradition, comparing the insights of Western mystics like Meister Eckhart with the emptiness found in the Heart Sutra. Finally, Versluis shares how his background in agriculture informs his work ethic and how Western philosophy can be complemented by the precise "maps" of consciousness found in Vajrayana Buddhism.

0:00 - Introduction: Teaching Plato & The Allegory of the Cave

4:45 - The Eclipse of Platonism & The Dominance of Materialism

10:19 - Reframing the "Forms": Angels, Hierarchy & Non-Duality

16:11 - Gnosticism, The Heart Sutra, and the Apophatic Lineage

24:10 - Luminism: The Hudson River School & The Metaphysics of Art

33:59 - Kant vs. Schelling: Who Opens the Door to Mysticism?

40:21 - The Descent into Darkness & The Ancient Mysteries

50:38 - What is Perennial Philosophy? (Truth vs. Relativism)

58:52 - American Gurus & The Problem with New Age Spirituality

69:17 - Breaking Through the Materialistic Deception

75:23 - Farming, Buddhist Maps of Consciousness & Recovering the West

Follow me to get updates on the podcast and my work:
https://substack.com/@tiagovf

https://www.instagram.com/tiagobooks/

The intro song is by Lief Sjostrom, titled Peril, from the album 'Impossible Parade'.

Website: https://liefsjostrom.com/

Album: https://liefsjostrom.bandcamp.com/album/impossible-parade

This conversation explores the depths of Object-Oriented Ontology (OOO) and its radical departure from both analytic and continental philosophy traditions. Graham Harman explains the limitations of "literalism" in science and how great philosophy relies on intuition and rhetoric rather than just rational justification. We discuss the influence of Martin Heidegger's tool analysis and the difference between "real" and "sensual" objects. We also cover the role of architecture in philosophy and why art may be the only way to touch the reality of things.

00:00 - Introduction to Object-Oriented Ontology

05:00 - Heidegger, Husserl, and Tool Analysis

09:00 - The Critique of Literalism

15:00 - Aesthetics and Metaphor

17:50 - Defining "Objects" vs. Materialism

25:00 - Sacredness and Ethical Imperatives

37:50 - Object-Object Interaction

51:19 - Flat Ontology & Human Exceptionalism

55:00 - Animal Intelligence

1:07:50 - Intuition, Truth, and Justification

1:17:50 - Theology, Mysticism, and Essence

1:31:00 - Philosophy and Architecture

www.anagogepodast.com

Follow me to get updates on the podcast and my work:
https://substack.com/@tiagovf

https://www.instagram.com/tiagobooks/

The intro song is by Lief Sjostrom, titled Peril, from the album 'Impossible Parade'.

Website: https://liefsjostrom.com/

Album: https://liefsjostrom.bandcamp.com/album/impossible-parade