Ryan and Nicole talk with bio-yogi, author, movement leader, healer, and plant medicine shaman/guide, Julian Devoe, whom they first met during a plant medicine journey involving Huachuma (the San Pedro cactus) in 2024. They discuss everything from plant medicine journeys, the challenges of occupying unconventional healing spaces (i.e., spaces that are divorced from organized religion or therapeutic endeavors), the nature of relationships, and in particular, relationships with people, nature, and the unquantifiable. Discussed: plant medicine, huachuma, ayahuasca, healing experiences, first steps in discovering healing pathways, unconventional experiences, visions, evangelical Christianity, unconventional healing spaces, groundedness, relationship with nature, relationship with people, relationship as preeminent, relationship with the unquantifiable, mystery, mysticism.

Ryan and Nicole explain their brief hiatus, reflect on what's transpired since they were out, and examine the ways the relational thread which comprises the focus of the CLOSER podcast will be explored in Season 2, specifically with the inclusion of guests on the show to include therapists, spiritual teachers, spiritual guides, plant medicine journeyers, and more. Discussed: ebb and flow of life, marriage, men and women and friendships, friends of other genders in heterosexual marriages, friends in marriage, transitional times, life and marriage, inability to provide for one another's needs, Rob, Bell, Julian Devoe, Sara Safari, Amy Adams, Matt Powers.

In the previous episode, Ryan & Nicole unexpectedly bumped into some old wounds and found themselves caught up in old dynamics in real-time, trying to process old and new feelings and to care for themselves and each other while touching feelings of struggle, disconnection, and loss. As a result, here in Episode 13, they go back to the therapeutic principle of "process talk," discussing what was happening for them and what they learned.

Discussed: content and process in therapy, process talk, vulnerability, tension, harshness in communication, process talk as central in understanding broader relationship implications, fighting in relational contexts, connection between intimacy and fighting, previous iterations of self, working with tension, intentionality, leaning in, and more.