The word “ROC” written in blood shocked investigators and the public alike. But in Part Two of The Murder of Karen Pannell, the truth emerges not from what was written on the wall — but from what the evidence refused to ignore.

In this episode, Dark Dialogue follows the case into the courtroom, where forensic science, timelines, and witness testimony dismantled the idea of a dying declaration and exposed a carefully staged crime scene. Prosecutors laid out a case built on bloodstain pattern analysis, medical testimony, DNA evidence, cell-tower data, and a collapsing alibi — while the defense fought to inject reasonable doubt through challenges to interpretation, memory, and motive.

We examine the full trial: • The medical examiner’s testimony and why Karen could not have written “ROC” • Bloodstain analysis proving the message was added after the attack • DNA evidence tying Tim Permenter to a close, violent struggle — and excluding others • Cell-tower records and eyewitness timelines that placed him at the scene through the night • George Solomon’s account of a late-night confession and request for cover • Tim Permenter’s decision to testify — and how jurors weighed his explanations

The episode concludes with the jury’s verdict, the death-penalty recommendation, the judge’s ultimate sentence of life without parole, and the appellate rulings that upheld the conviction. We also return to Karen — not as evidence, but as a person — in a final victim tribute that centers her life, her strength, and the cost of intimate-partner violence.

This is not a story about a word written in blood. It is a story about control, deception, and how truth survives even the most deliberate attempts to bury it.

Original music featured in the victim tribute includes “Paper Wings” by JJ Hawk, produced by Hawk Studios, and used with permission. Learn more about JJ Hawk and Hawk Studios here: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61574578047424

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Listener discretion advised: this episode contains discussion of violent crime and graphic details.

In October 2003, 39-year-old airline professional Karen Pannell was found stabbed to death inside her Oldsmar, Florida villa. Near her body, written in blood on the kitchen wall, was a single word: “ROC.”

At first, investigators believed they were looking at a dying message — a final act of identification left by a woman who knew she was dying. Karen’s ex-boyfriend, whose nickname was Roc, became the immediate focus.

But the evidence didn’t hold.

In this first episode of a two-part investigation, Dark Dialogue examines how a crime scene that seemed to explain itself slowly unraveled. Forensic analysis revealed the blood writing was staged. Cell-tower data contradicted alibis. Witnesses stepped forward. And a relationship marked by control, deception, and a hidden violent past came sharply into focus.

This episode follows:

• The discovery of Karen’s body and the initial investigation
• Why the bloody message pointed investigators in the wrong direction
• How forensic science exposed staging rather than truth
• The “exit-ramp danger zone” — the statistically most lethal moment in abusive relationships
• The early cracks that shifted the case away from a framed suspect and toward the real killer

This is not just a murder story. It’s a case study in how control escalates when it begins to fail, and why leaving an abusive relationship is often the most dangerous step of all.

Part Two will take listeners into the courtroom — where lies collapse, evidence speaks, and accountability is finally forced into the open.

If You or Someone You Know Needs Help

If you are in immediate danger, call 911 (U.S.) or your local emergency number right now.

Confidential support is available 24/7:

• National Domestic Violence Hotline (U.S.) 📞 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 💬 Text START to 88788 🌐 https://www.thehotline.org
• National Center for Victims of Crime 📞 855-4-VICTIM (855-484-2846) 🌐 https://victimsofcrime.org
• StrongHearts Native Helpline 📞 1-844-7NATIVE (1-844-762-8483) 🌐 https://strongheartshelpline.org

Leaving an abusive relationship is dangerous — but you do not have to do it alone. Advocates can help you create a safety plan tailored to your situation.

How You Can Take Action Beyond Listening

• Join the Adopt-a-Victim Program Help support research, records review, and investigative work for a missing or unsolved case: 👉 www.darkdialogue.com
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Part Two drops next — and the truth doesn’t stay hidden forever.

…and keep the dialogue alive…

By the time the Chicago Ripper Crew finally stood before a judge, the worst of their crimes were already over — but justice was only beginning its long, uneven struggle.

In this final episode of Dark Dialogue’s Chicago Ripper Crew series, we step inside the courtrooms, parole hearings, execution chambers, and political backrooms that determined how four men responsible for some of the most sadistic crimes in Illinois history would ultimately be punished — or spared.

This episode examines what happened after the arrests: • Who received life sentences • Who was executed • Who had a death sentence erased by a governor’s pen • And who walked free decades later — legally, permanently, and without supervision

Most disturbing of all, we confront the truth that the man believed by investigators and co-defendants to be the architect of the violence was never convicted of a single murder.

Through trial transcripts, sentencing records, appellate rulings, and survivor testimony, this episode lays bare the legal mechanics that shaped the outcome of the case — plea deals, confession battles, death-penalty politics, commutations, and sentencing laws written long before anyone imagined their consequences.

We explore: • How Illinois prosecutors built cases without physical forensic evidence • Why confessions became both the system’s greatest weapon and its weakest link • How one execution became the last in Illinois history • Why another man was released in 2019 — not because of innocence, but because the law required it • And how victims’ families have spent decades reliving the worst moments of their lives just to keep killers behind bars

This is not an episode about shock value. It is about accountability, systemic failure, and the uncomfortable reality that justice does not always align with truth.

Above all, this episode gives the final word to the women — the named, the unnamed, the survivors, and those whose bodies were never recovered. Their lives mattered long before they were reduced to exhibits, transcripts, and case numbers.

If you’re listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any major platform: • Follow the show • Leave a five-star rating • Write a review — it directly helps keep victim-focused investigative storytelling alive

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To support the work behind Dark Dialogue: • Join the Dark Dialogue Collective • Participate in the Adopt-a-Victim Program • Support us on Patreon, Ko-fi, or Substack

To share insights, corrections, or case information, you can always reach us directly — we read every message, and your voice matters.

Because when the headlines fade and the verdicts are filed away, the dialogue must continue.

Keep the dialogue alive.

Episode 3: “The Breaking Point — Arrests & Confessions”

When Chicago police arrested Robin Gecht on October 20, 1982, they didn’t yet realize they were dismantling one of the most sadistic cults in American history. From Beverly Washington’s miraculous survival to the chain of interrogations, confessions, and forensic discoveries that followed, this episode chronicles the pivotal week when the façade of normalcy collapsed — revealing the full depravity of the Chicago Ripper Crew.

Over the next twelve days, detectives arrested Edward Spreitzer, Andrew Kokoraleis, and Thomas Kokoraleis, unraveling a ritual network that turned murder into ceremony. Through firsthand statements, investigative records, and survivor accounts, John and Angela take you inside the interrogation rooms, the forensic evidence, and the confessions that finally broke the case wide open.

This episode exposes the moment when police, prosecutors, and the public first faced the unthinkable truth — and the women who refused to be erased by it.

🔦 Calls to Action

If this story mattered to you, help keep the dialogue alive:

• Like, follow, and leave a review wherever you listen — it helps other true-crime listeners find us.
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• Questions, case suggestions, or feedback? Email info@darkdialogue.com — we read every message.

🔚 Closing Line

Because every story deserves to be told, every victim deserves to be remembered… and above all — keep the dialogue alive.

Chicago wasn’t just terrified— it was being hunted.

In Part 2 of our Chicago Ripper Crew series, Dark Dialogue descends into the darkest chapter of the investigation: the rituals, methods, mutilations, and psychology behind a murder cult that operated in broad daylight and believed every killing was an act of worship.

Through rare survivor accounts, forensic reconstruction, and psychological analysis, this episode exposes the cold, structured system behind the Crew’s violence:

• The rituals of mutilation and why the left breast became the Crew’s signature

• The hierarchy inside the red van — Gecht the manipulator, Spreitzer the enforcer, the Kokoraleis brothers the obedient disciples

• How a sexual sadist turned routine murder into religious ceremony

• The forensic reconstruction of confirmed and suspected victims

• Cynthia Smith’s early survival and how it was ignored

• The failed rituals, the “unnamed” victims, and the murders erased by time

• The night Rafael Tirado and Alberto Rosario broke the pattern

• The miracle survival of Beverly Washington, the woman who brought the Ripper Crew to justice

• The myth, rumor, and truth behind Carole Pappas’ disappearance

• Chicago’s geography of fear — industrial corridors, riverbanks, motels, and alleys that became killing grounds

This episode also includes a powerful tribute segment honoring the lives of the women — and the few men — whose stories were taken but not forgotten.

Graphic descriptions of mutilation, torture, sexual assault, cannibalistic ritual elements, and extreme violence. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

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info@darkdialogue.com

Investigating the cases that haunt small towns and big cities alike… One story at a time.

Chicago, 1981. A city drowning in crime, corruption, recession — and something darker lurking beneath the surface. In this episode of Dark Dialogue, John takes Angela (and listeners) into the heart of one of the most disturbing cases in American criminal history: the Chicago Ripper Crew, a cult-like group led by Robin Gecht that turned a red van into a mobile house of horror.

From the first victim, Linda Sutton, to the escalating ritual murders that followed, this episode exposes how four men — Gecht, Edward Spreitzer, and brothers Andrew and Thomas Kokoraleis — carried out some of the most sadistic crimes Chicago has ever seen. Through forensic detail, survivor testimony, psychological insight, and meticulous research, we trace the rise of a cult built on fear, manipulation, and ritual mutilation.

Angela provides a full breakdown of Chicago and DuPage County in the early ’80s — the environment that allowed the Crew to operate in plain sight. Together, we follow the killings of:

• Linda Sutton – The first victim, whose murder became the blueprint
• Lorraine “Lorry” Borowski – Whose abduction shattered suburbia
• Shui Mak – The escalation of brutality
• Angel York – A survivor who gave police their first real break
• Sandra Delaware – Killed in full ritual
• Rose Davis – The apex of violence

And ultimately, the survivor who brought the truth into the light: Beverly Washington — the woman whose testimony placed Gecht behind bars for 120 years.

This is Part 1 of a four-episode investigation that exposes the rituals, psychology, and forensic realities surrounding Chicago’s most terrifying cult murders.

⭐ Support the Show & Join the Community

If you believe in what we’re doing — honoring victims, exposing failures, and shining light on the darkest corners of crime — you can support us directly:

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Join the Dark Dialogue Collective — our boots-on-the-ground volunteer network of researchers, analysts, and advocates who help move cold cases forward.

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All links are on DarkDialogue.com.

📩 Contact & Socials

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🎙️ Closing Note

Stay curious. Stay compassionate. And keep the dialogue alive.

High in the Colorado mountains, the quiet town of Guffey hid a nightmare no one saw coming. In the winter of 2001, three members of the Dutcher family were brutally murdered — not by strangers, but by teenagers under the control of an unlikely ringleader: 19-year-old Simon Sue, a self-styled commander who built his own secret “organization” and convinced classmates to kill in his name.

The Pact of Shadows explores how Sue’s delusional creation — a supposed spy network called O.A.R.A. — blurred the line between fantasy and fanaticism. Through psychological manipulation, humiliation rituals, and fear, he transformed a small circle of high schoolers into his loyal soldiers. When one of them — 15-year-old Isaac Grimes — hesitated, Sue turned friendship into a death sentence.

Join John and Angela as they retrace how a charismatic teen’s obsession spiraled into one of Colorado’s most shocking crimes. From the Dutchers’ mountain cabin to the interrogation rooms where terrified boys confessed, this episode exposes how the need to belong can become a weapon — and how evil sometimes wears the face of someone we trust.

Dark Dialogue delivers the full story: the control, the loyalty, the murders, and the trials that followed — revealing how fantasy turned to bloodshed in a town too small to imagine such horror.

If this episode moved you, follow, rate, and review Dark Dialogue wherever you listen. Every review helps bring more attention to forgotten cases.

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🎙️ Dark Dialogue: The stories that haunt small towns and big cities alike. Keep searching. Keep questioning. And above all — keep the dialogue alive.

In October 2008, the quiet streets of North Canton, Ohio—a place known for safety, family, and small-town calm—were shattered by an act of horror that still defies belief.

Thirty-four-year-old Brett W. Smith was found brutally murdered and decapitated inside his own home at Evergreen Mobile Home Park. His killer wasn’t a stranger or a drifter. It was the man who lived just across the fence — William D. Perry, a neighbor whose rage and instability turned deadly.

Through court records, forensic analysis, and first-hand accounts, this episode of Dark Dialogue unravels the story of a man whose only mistake was trusting that home meant safety. You’ll hear about the decade-long peace shattered overnight, the haunting discovery made by Brett’s mother, and the exhaustive investigation that brought Perry to justice.

But more than the violence, this story is about who Brett was — a gentle, kind man who lived with health challenges yet met the world with quiet strength. It’s about his mother, Judy, who endured the unimaginable: burying not one, but two sons, and carrying on with grace.

Join John and Angela as they explore how the illusion of suburban safety can collapse in an instant — when the real monster isn’t hiding in the shadows… but living next door.

🖤 Support the mission: Become part of the Dark Dialogue Collective, a community dedicated to remembering victims and pursuing truth.

📜 Adopt a Victim: Help keep their stories alive by carrying forward the name and memory of someone who can no longer speak for themselves.

🌐 Visit: www.darkdialogue.com — for case files, victim tributes, and ways to get involved.

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💬 Follow, rate, and share: Your reviews and shares keep these stories alive — and help honor victims like Brett by making sure their voices are never forgotten.

Dark Dialogue Podcast Network Keep searching. Keep questioning. Keep remembering. Keep listening. And above all — keep the dialogue alive.