Today, we’re honored to share a conversation with Tish Harrison Warren on her beautiful brand new book, What Grows in Weary Lands.

From the very first pages of this book, Tish gives us language for something so familiar. She writes about aridity—those seasons of spiritual drought, exhaustion, or distance from God, when prayer feels flat, faith feels heavy, and the life we once found nourishing suddenly feels barren.

Then she also introduces us to the ancient idea of acedia—what the Desert Fathers and Mothers sometimes called “the noonday demon.” It’s that restless belief that life with God would be easier somewhere else, sometime else, with different work, different people, a different church, or a new set of circumstances. It’s a restlessness that wants to escape the ordinary demands of love in search of some imagined future where spiritual highs are constant and faith feels effortless.

But Tish says these experiences of aridity and acedia aren’t signs that something has gone wrong, in fact, they are experiences that Christians throughout time have understood to be a normal—even necessary—part of spiritual maturity.

In this conversation, she helps us see that the invitation in these weary seasons is not to force our way back into those spiritual highs, but to stay with prayer, to stay with the ordinary practices that have formed disciples for centuries, often staying with imperfect communities and relationships even after the shine has worn off and the brokenness becomes visible.

She makes the case that that maturity often looks less like finding the perfect place, and more like learning how God meets us in imperfect places through patience, repair, and the slow work of love.

Tish is an Anglican priest and author known for her award winning books Liturgy of the Ordinary and Prayer in the Night. Her new book, What Grows in Weary Lands, was released this week and is available on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold. We are so grateful to Tish for coming on the podcast and we hope that you enjoy this conversation.

Listen to the audiobook of The Bible Storybook by Sarah and Josh Sabey in Scripture Stories for Little Saints on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Our donors and paid subscribers make this collaboration possible--thank you for your support!

Today, as we celebrate our mothers and motherhood, we’re exploring the symbols of our Divine Mother hidden throughout ancient Christianity, and what it might mean for each of us—men and women—to cultivate and integrate divine femininity into our own souls.

Our guests are Kathryn and Bob Sonntag, who joined us at Restore last year for a powerful session on ritual, wisdom, and our Divine Mother. Today, we’re bringing that conversation to everyone.

Together, we explore where the symbol of the Mother appears in ancient Christian traditions and grapple honestly with what divine femininity and divine masculinity look like when we strip away the stereotypes that can become rigid and prescriptive. As Kathryn says, the feminine is, by its nature, subtle and hidden—something that has to be cultivated with intention. And when souls or systems overdevelop the masculine and lose touch with feminine wisdom (or vice versa), something essential goes missing. Neither the masculine nor the feminine can truly flourish without the other.

We spend time on practical integration. Bob says that ritual is the way we translate meaning into action—the way spiritual truths become lived realities. And he says that ritual isn’t reserved for temples or holy days, but is available in the texture of ordinary life—in hospitality, shared meals, and the quiet rhythms of each day. When we bring intention to those moments, the mundane becomes sacred, and the deeper work of integration and transformation can take root.

This one is for Mother’s Day, and for anyone ready to engage in this deep inner work. We hope you enjoy this conversation with Kathryn and Bob Sonntag.

You can read more from Kathryn in her book, The Mother Tree, which is available on Amazon and at wayfaremagazine.org. You can read more from Bob at WayfareMagazine.org.

Listen to the audiobook of The Bible Storybook by Sarah and Josh Sabey in Scripture Stories for Little Saints on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Our donors and paid subscribers make this collaboration possible--thank you for your support!

Today, we’re really excited to share a special episode with Jeff Strong on his new book, Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn From Them.

Research suggests that roughly 40% of formerly active, faithful members have stepped away from the Church in the last twenty-five years—and the pace is accelerating. Jeff Strong is asking why. Drawing on hundreds of interviews, he’s found that, again and again, disaffiliation is rooted in unmet spiritual needs, strained trust, and experiences of exclusion or spiritual starvation. Jeff’s book is unflinchingly honest—and genuinely hopeful, because if culture is part of the problem, there’s also something all of us can do to help.

In this conversation, Jeff really challenges the assumption that people leave casually. His data shows that, on average, most people wrestle for nearly a decade before stepping away. These are sincere, often private, and deeply painful journeys that deserve to be understood with care.

Jeff says that what we need are not more gatekeepers, but more gardeners. He suggests our role isn’t to monitor who’s in or out—or how “in” or “out” anyone is—but to tend the kind of soil where faith can grow: in our homes, our wards, and our relationships.

He helps us recognize when that soil has become compacted or depleted of spiritual nutrients, and offers practical, grounded ways for everyday members and leaders to cultivate something more nourishing—a more Christ-centered culture where more people can grow and flourish.

We are so excited for you to read this book and hear the conversation. You can buy the book on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever you buy books. You can read the introduction and first two chapters, check out the appendix, and learn more about the research on Jeff’s website, tornbyjeffstrong.com.

Listen to the audiobook of The Bible Storybook by Sarah and Josh Sabey in Scripture Stories for Little Saints on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Our donors and paid subscribers make this collaboration possible--thank you for your support!