Episode #204: John Kennelly — Founders who hate sales still have to sell

If sales feels intrusive, this episode reframes it as problem-solving.
Built for founders avoiding sales calls, decks, and outreach.

John Kennelly, Founder of I Hate Sales, works with founders who have never had a sales job and actively avoid selling. In this episode, he explains why sales fear is usually a mindset problem, not a skill gap, and why curiosity matters more than persuasion. The conversation covers running discovery without pitching, qualifying people out quickly, and why early founders slow themselves down by building systems instead of talking to customers. Kennelly shares concrete examples from his cohort work, including starting with interviews instead of sales calls and what to track before using a CRM.

What you’ll hear

• Reframing sales from “intrusion” to helping through discovery
• How to run interviews instead of sales calls
• Why broad ICPs, decks, and CRMs backfire early
• The only two metrics to track before you have customers

Chapters

Chapters with timestamps

• 00:00 — Why founders dread sales
• 02:17 — Sales as helping, not intruding
• 03:39 — Curiosity and discovery before pitching
• 05:17 — Qualifying hard and knowing your ICP
• 08:16 — Interviews instead of sales calls
• 13:48 — What to track before using a CRM

Links & resources

GuestJohn Kennelly — Founder, I Hate Sales
Website
LinkedIn

About Frank Growth

Frank Growth is a podcast about how companies actually grow—real operators, real constraints, real decisions. Hosted by Jason Shafton.

Promotional links

• Work with Winston Francois
• Subscribe / Follow Jason

How founders use acquisitions to grow without betting the company.
For operators considering their first inorganic deal.

Trevor Houghton is CEO of Pass Galleries and a former private equity and corporate development operator. He breaks down how founders can use acquisitions to increase enterprise value without overextending capital. The conversation covers how deals actually get sourced, why most failed acquisitions start with the wrong premise, and how Trevor structures transactions using debt, seller notes, and earn-outs to reduce downside. He walks through a concrete example of acquiring $5M in EBITDA with no net cash outlay and explains why integration planning must start before the deal closes.

• Why the best acquisitions start as partnerships, not cold offers
• The customers vs. capabilities rule and why you must only extend one
• How no-money-down deals work using debt and deferred payments
• Why day-one integration and early culture alignment determine outcomes

Timestamps derived from the episode transcript.

• 00:00 — Structuring acquisitions with minimal cash risk
• 00:30 — Introduction to inorganic growth and Trevor’s background
• 01:44 — Building acquisition paths through partnerships
• 03:13 — The customer vs. capability decision framework
• 04:07 — Identifying targets through existing customer usage
• 05:03 — Growing earnings and valuation through acquisitions
• 06:04 — Integration planning before close
• 06:29 — Culture integration and no-money-down deal mechanics
• 08:05 — Building an acquisition engine

Guest
Trevor Houghton — CEO, Pass Galleries
https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-houghton-th/

Frank Growth is a podcast about how companies actually grow—real operators, real constraints, real decisions.
Hosted by Jason Shafton.

• Work with Winston Francois: https://wf.team/podcast
• Subscribe / Follow Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonshafton/

John Connolly - Make your growth story hold up in investor diligence