"It's not an emptiness or a void, it's actually full of possibility. And once I started to explore it, how they explained it, the Japanese concept is about when you listen to music, there's always space between the notes. And then if you apply that to a book or a page, there's always space between the words. So that space, that white space, another way of describing, it is necessary." Susan Ni Chriodain

David, Susanne and I come together for a wide-ranging conversation about liminal spaces - the spaces between words, seasons, endings and beginnings. We explore why these in-between moments matter, why we often rush to fill them, and what becomes possible when we allow pause, uncertainty and not-knowing. The conversation covers:

• seasons and transitions in life and in work
• endings that haven’t fully ended
• listening, silence and the courage to say “I don’t know”

This episode is an invitation to notice what we usually overlook and to consider what might emerge when we willingly inhabit the space between.

Dr Susanne Evans is an organisation change consultant, trainer, coach and researcher on a mission to change the way that transformations are managed in organisations. She founded Feldspar Consulting in 2007 to help her clients lead change in a more human, effective way. As well as writing and speaking about organisation change, Susanne hosts open storytelling workshops, supporting organisations and individuals in writing a compelling story for themselves. She is the author of ChangeStories and the host of the popular ChangeStories podcast.

David Lee is a coach, consultant, workshop facilitator, keynote speaker, and author, who loves creating a win/win/win relationship between people and the organizations they work for. He helps leaders and leadership teams learn how to become "people whisperers", and by doing so, increase their ability to make their organization THE choice for "A List Talent" and inspire the best in their people.

Connect with Susanne

On LinkedIn

Through her website: Feldspar Consulting

Listen to Change Stories podcast

Connect with David

On LinkedIn

Through his website Human Nature at Work

Resources Mentioned:

Dr Seuss, Oh, The Places You'll Go

The In-Between Book, Christopher Willard, Olivia Weisser, Alison Oliver

Tending To Endings Cards https://www.tendingtoendings.com/

"I'm only a small cog in this. I'm developing this thought about trying to do good, but we can't all do it alone. If we can all collectively hold hands and all just have this thought that if we can do good in this world… I do think that there's a lot to be said for farming and fresh produce because it's feeding the world in a sustainable manner and it's doing good." Max MacGillivray

Max MacGillivray and I begin with stories about fresh produce and taste memories, before moving into how society has become disconnected from where food comes from. We explore farming as a vocation, global food systems, ultra-processed foods, health outcomes, education and the role of large food multinationals. We also discuss recruitment and leadership within agriculture and fresh produce, cross-sector learning, the value of conversation and storytelling and why showing the human side of food production matters. We reflect on travel, networking as human connection and the opportunities that open up when people step beyond familiar paths.

Max MacGillivray is an executive recruiter and founder of Redfox Executive Selection, specialising in mid-management to board hires across fresh produce, fresh foods, agri-business and retail in the UK and internationally. He created The Great Fruit & Veg Adventure—a Triumph motorbike ride from London to Cape Town (18 countries, 18,000 km), visiting 50+ fresh-produce businesses, followed in real time by 250,000 schoolchildren, and honoured with the UK Prime Minister’s Points of Light award. Max also founded Beanstalk Global, a media platform for the international fresh-food sector. Its mantra: “Create the conversation, don’t just be part of it.” Through broadcasts, interviews and partnerships, Beanstalk Global champions the people behind fresh food and connects purpose-led clients with high-impact opportunities.

Connect with Max

Through his website www.beanstalk.global

https://www.facebook.com/beanstalk.global

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxmacgillivray/

https://www.beanstalkmedia.co.uk/

Resources Mentioned:

Jeremy Clarkson and increasing public interest in farming and agriculture

Henry Dimbleby and the UK National Food Strategy

Pink Lady Apples

International Fresh Produce Association (IFPA) and the International Fresh Produce & Floral Show (Anaheim)

Leaf Open Farm Sunday – UK farming initiative

"A new type of thinking is essential if humankind is to survive and reach higher levels." Marsha Ramroop (quoting Einstein)

Marsha Ramroop explains how her purpose, giving the unheard voice a place to speak, first emerged during her broadcasting career, and how it now shapes her work in cultural intelligence and organisational change. We explore inclusion and why under-representation is a symptom of deeper cultural and behavioural issues. Marsha introduces Cultural Intelligence (CQ) and its four capabilities, showing how they help us work and relate effectively across difference. We also discuss the wider context of global uncertainty, polarisation and the need for, as Marsha quotes, “a new type of thinking”. Throughout, she emphasises personal responsibility, listening with intent, and the impact small behavioural shifts can have on teams, organisations and society. This conversation is packed, practical and human - an invitation to look inward, listen more deeply and consider the behaviours that help everyone feel valued, respected and included.

Marsha Ramroop is a global award-winning organisational inclusion strategist, author, and speaker with a passion for driving change across sectors - particularly in the built and natural environments - with her own consultancy Unheard Voice. Marsha’s book Building Inclusion: Practical Guide to Inclusion in Architecture & the Built Environment speaks about how to deliver inclusion; how we attract a diversity of people to our professions and organisations, retain that diversity, create inclusion in our services and engage external stakeholders inclusively. It was Highly Commended in the 2025 Business Book Awards. She had a 30-year career in broadcasting, bringing inclusion to BBC newsrooms through journalism, before turning to organisational culture consultancy. Connect with Marsha

Through her websites

www.unheardvoice.co.uk

www.buildinginclusion.info

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marsharamroop

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/marsharamroop/

Resources

Building Inclusion by Marsha Ramroop

Marcus Ryder & Lenny Henry — Manifesto for TV and Beyond (UK demographic data from the Office for National Statistics)

Dale Carnegie — How to Win Friends and Influence People

Paulo Freire & Adam Rutherford

The Doomsday Clock

Leading Beyond the Numbers by Susan Ní Chríodáin

Business Book Awards 2025