What does film pre-production have in common with international development, software engineering, or urban design? More than you'd think!

In this episode, Danielle sits down with Kelsey Wilkins - screen writer, script supervisor, and sister extraordinaire - to talk about how pre-production, by any other name, would still be project design.

The two get into why the film industry's planning processes mirror challenges we see across many other sectors, why bigger is not always better when it comes to storytelling if you can't align your vision, how strong vision without receptive leadership tanks good projects. Along the way: food trucks, Wes Anderson, theater playwright protections to directors who hate the color red.

It's a conversation about clarity, alignment, and why "flexible but firm" is the leadership balance most project leads are missing.

What happens when everyone agrees something needs to change, but the software you rolled out to fix it isn't actually fixing anything?

In Part 2, Emma Marks and Audrey Damman get real about what happened after they got consensus to roll out Asana to their team at WRI. Spoiler: getting everyone to agree was just the beginning. This is where they learned that culture eats software for breakfast—and that the real work of internal change happens after the design phase is "done."

This continues our conversation from Part 1, where we explored how Emma and Audrey designed their Asana rollout. They had consensus. They had a vision. They had a plan. But implementation is where internal change projects get tested, and where Emma and Audrey discovered their biggest blind spot: they'd invested heavily in designing the system, but hadn't invested enough in the culture needed to make that system work.

The big twist? Getting consensus was actually the easy part. Emma and Audrey thought they had it figured out after the design phase, but implementation revealed some hard truths about what it actually takes to change how a team works—and what role software actually plays in that equation (hint: it's smaller than you think).

They also discovered some surprising things about what you actually need to make internal change happen. Spoiler: it's not what most people think, and it might make your job a lot easier.

My Favorite Quotes of the Episode:

"Software is not a proxy or replacement for good habits around project design and project management... If you don't have a project kickoff for every internal project where everyone is co-designing a timeline and roles, then the thing that you're putting into the software system is ultimately kind of meaningless." - Emma Marks

"Don't wait until it's perfect because you can spend forever trying to design the perfect process... Give it the appropriate amount of thought and then just roll it out and start testing it." - Emma Marks

"If you believe in your vision... you need one person, or maybe two... and you can make a change." - Audrey Damman

Episode Breakdown

00:00 - 01:48 - Introduction and recap: consensus achieved, now what?

01:49 - 05:32 - From office hours to micro trainings: what worked and what didn't

05:33 - 07:57 - The after-action review and addressing uneven adoption

07:57 - 09:23 - Why vision matters for iterative design and onboarding new team members

09:24 - 13:53 - How their M&E framework evolved (and why flexibility matters)

13:53 - 17:14 - The big realization: culture eats software for breakfast

17:15 - 20:55 - Internal projects vs external: unique challenges and timelines

21:02 - 26:50 - Don't wait for perfect; you don't need leadership buy-in to start

26:50 - End - Final reflections and the importance of working with people who inspire you

What is happening when your whole team agrees on what's broken, but at the end of the day, nothing changes?

In this episode I sit down with Emma Marks and Audrey Damman to talk about what they learned rolling out a new work management system to their team. We get into some of their findings about how just because everyone agrees that something is a problem, it doesn't mean that solving that problem is a priority for everyone. Agreement is definitely not commitment!

This is part one of a two part conversation about designing internal change projects- the kind where you're trying to shift how your team works, not just deliver a product to external stakeholders. Emma and Audrey walk us through their design process, what they wish they'd done differently, and why leading with vision matters more than listing pain points.

If you've ever wondered why your well-designed project lost momentum, or why stakeholder buy-in seemed solid until it wasn't, you might find some tid bits in this conversation.

My Favorite Quotes of the Episode:

"...you don't want to over-index for your point of view because your pain point isn't necessarily everyone's pain point." - Emma Marks

"We might reach consensus and be all on the same page about what the problem is, but how meaningful that problem is to people varied. People didn't see it as needing the same level of intervention or the same level of time investment." - Audrey Damman

Episode Breakdown

00:00 - 07:00 - Introductions and setting up the project

07:00 - 14:00 - What project design means for internal change projects

14:00 - 20:00 - The theory of change rollout that inspired this work 20:00 - 29:00 - How they facilitated problem definition without over-indexing

29:00 - 34:00 - The gap between consensus and commitment

34:00 - End - Why vision matters and preview of Part 2