• Is the Signature Worth the Squeeze? The Truth About Centralized Email Signatures
    Jan 5 2026
    Felicia King opens Breakfast Bytes with a sharp, practical question: is the “juice” you get from a centralized email signature platform worth the “squeeze” it takes to implement it? Through a series of real-world examples and clear stakes, she walks listeners from small teams that should keep signatures simple to larger organizations that need policy, tooling, and operational rigor. Along the way she exposes the conflict: marketing wants shiny banners, IT worries about deliverability and DNS changes, and third parties may see your outbound mail or inject tracking pixels. When signatures are mishandled, the consequence is not just ugly formatting — it can become a genuine business problem, even a “sales prevention” issue. Felicia closes with practical resolution: write a policy, empower managers, and choose platforms that preserve data sovereignty and utilize role-based control. It’s a compact, candid roadmap for anyone deciding whether to centralize email signatures — and how to do it without breaking email. Felicia discussed the implications of email signature management platforms, highlighting security risks and operational challenges while emphasizing the need for organizations to weigh benefits against potential drawbacks. She provided guidance on email signature policies, recommending manual management for small organizations and centralized systems for larger ones, while stressing the importance of written policies and technical implementation tools. Felicia advocated for empowering managers to independently handle email signatures through appropriate training and accountability, contrasting this approach with organizations that rely on IT support, and emphasized the benefits of centralized platforms for branding, compliance, and data integrity. Email Signature Management Security Risks Felicia discussed the implications of using email signature management platforms, emphasizing the need to weigh the benefits against potential security risks and operational challenges. She highlighted that email signatures can affect email deliverability, as elements like hyperlinks and embedded graphics are subject to security scanning by recipient email systems, potentially leading to emails being marked as spam or blocked. Felicia also noted that many platforms are IT-centric, limiting staff involvement, and suggested considering whether department managers could handle email signature management effectively. Email Signature Management Guidelines Felicia discussed email signature policies, explaining that organizations with fewer than 10 employees should manage signatures manually through a written policy and staff training. For larger organizations, she recommended implementing a centralized email signature management system to handle the increased volume of business. Email Signature Policy Implementation Felicia emphasized the importance of having a written email signature policy, especially for organizations with 10 or more employees, to prevent the inclusion of excessive hyperlinks in outbound emails, which can lead to poor email scores. She highlighted the need for technical policy implementation tools and advised against attempting to configure email security settings like SPF, DKIM, and DMARC without involving a CTO, as many IT professionals still struggle with these configurations. Felicia also stressed that requesting whitelisting from recipients due to poor email deliverability is counterproductive and undermines an organization's security posture. Email Signature Management Best Practices Felicia emphasized the importance of professional assistance for DNS record and email signature implementations, warning against self-service approaches that often lead to poor outcomes. She highlighted the need for organizations to remove existing email signatures from end-user devices and modify onboarding policies to prevent signature-related issues. Felicia also raised concerns about third-party email signature platforms' practices of injecting tracking pixels, suggesting that Crossware offers a more privacy-friendly solution by deploying its platform in the client's own Azure tenant. Email Signature Management Empowerment Felicia discussed the benefits of hosting email management platforms, emphasizing data sovereignty and control over email visibility. She highlighted the importance of empowering managers to directly manage email signatures for their teams, rather than relying on the IT department. Felicia suggested a tool that allows authorized individuals to manage email signatures for specific groups within an organization, avoiding broad administrative access that could lead to inefficiencies in larger or more complex entities. Email Signature Management Empowerment Felicia emphasized the importance of empowering employees to manage their email signatures independently, requiring operational maturity and clear policies. She argued against the common practice of involving IT to assist ...
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    28 mins
  • AI, Fraud & the CTO: Navigating Counterparty Risk
    Dec 4 2025

    Host Felicia King weaves a sharp, personal narrative that ties together AI, fraud, vendor selection, and the critical role of a competent CTO. With candid anecdotes and hard-earned lessons, she explains why tightly-scoped AI — used by skilled experts with robust governance — can feel like a $150K colleague, and why poorly governed AI or flashy vendor promises can be catastrophic.

    Felicia recounts real examples: AI misestimating project hours, DDoS services sold as a bargain that hide downstream costs, and an enterprise outsourcing APIs to a freelance developer — each story revealing the hidden risks that lurk when counterparty relationships, transparency, and technical competency are ignored.

    Through clear guidance and provocative questions about trust and vendor behavior, she urges listeners to prioritize people they know, insist on disclosure, and secure CTO-level expertise to interpret AI claims and perform rigorous risk assessments. This episode is a practical wake-up call for leaders navigating the modern intersection of AI and operational risk.

    Quick recap

    Felicia discussed the proper implementation of artificial intelligence in business operations, emphasizing its value as a tool when used correctly under human oversight. She addressed the growing threat of AI-driven fraud and the importance of robust identity verification processes, introducing a service to help build trust between service providers and customers. Felicia stressed the significance of selecting IT vendors based on trust and transparency, advocating for the role of a Chief Technology Officer to navigate complex technical and business risks while ensuring proper risk management and security standards are maintained.

    AI Implementation and Human Oversight

    Felicia discussed the convergence of several interconnected topics, including artificial intelligence, fraud detection, and vendor selection. She emphasized the importance of proper AI implementation, highlighting its potential to act as a valuable asset when used correctly. Felicia also addressed the limitations of AI, noting that it excels at analyzing pre-engineered designs but should not be relied upon to create them. She stressed the need for human oversight and expertise when using AI tools, cautioning against the dangers of substituting AI for skilled professionals in critical roles.

    AI Fraud Prevention Strategies

    Felicia discussed the increasing threat of AI-driven fraud, highlighting the low financial and time investment required for criminals to create convincing deepfakes. She emphasized the importance of robust Know Your Customer (KYC) processes and multi-factor authentication, noting that these systems often create unnecessary friction for non-technical users. Felicia introduced a service called Professional Residential to address these issues, providing ongoing training and support to build trust between service providers and customers. She also explained the importance of validating customer identities, particularly for sensitive operations like vault access, and stressed that effective fraud prevention relies on maintaining consistent, human relationships with customers.

    Trust and Transparency in IT Vendors

    Felicia discussed the importance of selecting IT service providers based on trust and transparency rather than solely on technical metrics or past performance. She emphasized the need for open communication and mutual trust, warning against vendors who might be dishonest or introduce counterparty risk. Felicia also highlighted the importance of understanding the technical details of a vendor's offerings, using an example of a UCAS system where she discovered undisclosed technology through AI analysis.

    CTO's Role in Risk Management

    Felicia discussed the importance of having a Chief Technology Officer (CTO) to navigate complex technical and business risks. She shared examples of issues that could arise without proper risk assessment, such as high costs for unneeded services and lack of visibility into traffic. Felicia emphasized that only a CTO could identify these risks and make informed decisions. She also highlighted the dangers of using APIs without adhering to security standards and the importance of supply chain risk management. Felicia concluded that organizations need a CTO to help navigate these complex issues and avoid being vulnerable to potential threats.

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    28 mins
  • Choose Competence, Not Cheap: Smart Vendor Selection for Leaders
    Oct 30 2025

    On this episode of Breakfast Bytes, Felicia King tells the story of how simple, everyday choices—like a tax method or an internet contract—become high-stakes business decisions. Through vivid examples about mileage rates, S‑corp elections, and a seven‑year ISP contract that could cost tens of thousands, she reveals how knowledge turns ambiguity into power.

    As the narrative unfolds, you’ll follow a CEO learning to ask the right questions, to spot public‑facing security failures, and to judge vendors by demonstrated competence rather than the lowest price. Each example becomes a lesson in risk, cost of ownership, and contextual trust.

    By the end of the episode, you’ll have a clear, story‑driven framework: arm yourself with focused expertise, engage strategically with advisors, and select partners who earn their place through competence—because smart decisions protect your business and its future.

    Felicia emphasized the importance of informed decision-making in business, particularly when selecting vendors and service providers, and discussed the value of building a knowledge base through regular engagement with strategic advisors. She highlighted the significance of understanding complex topics like S-Corp taxation and evaluating competency when selecting professionals, while also stressing the need for thorough research and consultation with experts. Felicia also discussed the importance of assessing counterparty risk and selecting IT service providers based on competency rather than just cost, emphasizing the need for professional management and active participation in risk management discussions. Informed Decision-Making for Business Leaders Felicia King discussed the importance of informed decision-making in business, particularly when selecting vendors and service providers. She used examples like tax planning and internet connection choices to illustrate how having a basic level of expertise allows business leaders to better evaluate competency and make strategic decisions. Felicia emphasized that while business leaders don't need to handle every detail themselves, they should be well-informed enough to make key risk management and strategic decisions, potentially saving significant amounts of money over time. Strategic Advice for Informed Decisions Felicia discussed the importance of building a knowledgebase through regular engagement and discourse with strategic advisors, such as a chief technology officer, to prevent problems and make informed decisions. She used the example of choosing between the standard mileage rate and actual mileage for tax purposes, emphasizing the need to understand the implications and burden of compliance. Felicia highlighted the value of expert advice in strategic decisions, such as determining the most suitable method based on specific use cases like frequent vehicle changes. S-Corp Taxation Considerations Felicia discussed the complexities of S-Corp taxation and its implications for businesses, emphasizing the importance of understanding the costs and benefits before making an election. She highlighted the need for thorough research and consultation with professionals to avoid compliance issues. Felicia also stressed the significance of evaluating competency when selecting professionals, using examples from both accounting and technology industries to illustrate her points. Counterparty Risk Assessment Importance Felicia discussed the importance of assessing counterparty risk, noting that organizations often fail quickly in these assessments. She emphasized that a poor public-facing security posture can deter potential clients and reflect poorly on the organization's overall IT capabilities. Felicia highlighted that many security issues are relatively easy to fix and suggested that professional management is necessary for maintaining a secure configuration. IT Provider Selection Strategy Felicia discussed the importance of selecting IT service providers based on competency rather than just cost, emphasizing that trust must be contextual and not blanket. She highlighted that organizations should engage in informed decision-making processes, read technical documents, and participate actively in risk management discussions. Felicia also advised against comparing IT spending with peers due to varying business needs and encouraged businesses to allocate at least 15% of their revenue to technology expenditures, especially for those with under $20 million in revenue.
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    28 mins
  • The Truth About Cybersecurity Careers: Why Certifications and Degrees Aren't Enough
    Oct 3 2025

    On this episode of Breakfast Bytes, Felicia King addresses the challenges and misconceptions surrounding careers in information technology and cybersecurity. Drawing on decades of experience interviewing hundreds of candidates, Felicia dispels common myths about what it takes to become employable in IT.

    Key Themes:

    • Myth-Busting: Many believe that degrees and certifications alone guarantee a lucrative cybersecurity job. Felicia explains that real employability comes from hands-on experience, not theoretical knowledge.
    • Military Transition: While military members often have access to extensive training materials and security clearances, Felicia notes that these alone don’t translate to practical skills valued in the private sector.
    • The Skills Gap: There’s a substantial disconnect between what candidates think they know and the actual economic value of their skills. Many struggle with basic, practical IT tasks despite formal education.
    • Security Operations Centers (SOCs): Felicia critiques the prevalence of outsourced SOCs, describing them as “check-the-box” solutions that often lack real value and are staffed by underqualified personnel.
    • Hands-On Learning: The most effective path to employability is setting up a home lab, experimenting with real technology, and developing practical troubleshooting skills. Felicia emphasizes that security is not a separate job—it’s an integral part of every IT function.
    • Work Ethic and Reliability: Success in IT requires showing up, being reliable, and taking initiative. Felicia shares personal stories about always volunteering for new tasks and consistently delivering results.
    • Continuous Learning: The IT field demands a high learning capacity and a passion for problem-solving. Felicia encourages listeners to leverage free resources, podcasts, and structured self-study to stay current and grow their expertise.
    • Work from home is not really helping you: If you want to not be replaced by outsourced IT in another country, you have to be willing to go into the office daily. A person who goes into the office every day affords themselves the ability to be able to handle tasks from start to finish including projects which require hands-on and physical presence. Being in the office every day means you are there when there is an opportunity for cross training or collaboration. Work from home employees are a burden on the other staff and the employer and need to accept being paid less since they are inherently less valuable because they are unable to handle any of the workload that requires physical presence. Managers need to reduce hand-offs. It does not work for one person to do the onsite work and then for some other people to do all the remote work. These handoffs nearly always result in higher costs, slower time to resolution, and lower quality. Bottom line: If you are in the office, the employer has more ways in which you could add economic value to the business, and you will be seen as less replaceable while having higher economic certainty.

    Actionable Advice:

    • Build a home lab and get hands-on with technology. https://qpcsecurity.com/about-us/careers/cybersecurity-career-resources/
    • Demonstrate your problem-solving process in interviews.
    • Be willing to work on-site and take on a variety of tasks.
    • Respect boundaries and be reliable; opportunity comes to those who can be counted on.
    • Invest in continuous learning and embrace discomfort as part of growth.

    Closing Thought: Felicia’s message is clear: becoming employable in cybersecurity is about practical experience, reliability, and a commitment to lifelong learning—not just credentials. For more resources, visit the Career Resources section at qpcsecsecurity.com.

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    28 mins
  • MSP vs MSSP: Why Outsourced Security Often Falls Short
    Sep 3 2025

    In this episode of Breakfast Bytes, Felicia explained the key differences between Managed Service Providers and Managed Security Service Providers, emphasizing that organizations should prefer MSPs acting as their full internal IT departments for security functions unless they are the IT department and lack necessary technical skills. She highlighted the limitations of the current incident response paradigm, particularly the challenges with outsourcing security monitoring to MSSPs and the lack of effective escalation to capable incident response teams. Felicia stressed the importance of having a skilled incident commander with strong decision-making authority and technical expertise to effectively handle security incidents.

    Summary

    MSP vs. MSSP Security Services

    Felicia discussed the differences between Managed Service Providers (MSPs) and Managed Security Service Providers (MSSPs). She explained that MSPs act as outsourced IT departments, handling various IT functions, while MSSPs focus specifically on security services. Felicia emphasized that organizations should aim for their internal IT departments, or their full-service MSP to handle security functions rather than outsourcing to MSSPs, unless they have an internal IT team that lacks the necessary technical skills. She advised that organizations with revenues of $300 million or more should consider hiring in-house talent or outsourcing to large, well-funded companies to avoid potential legal issues with smaller providers.

    Enhancing Incident Response Effectiveness

    Felicia discussed the limitations of the current paradigm in incident response, highlighting that outsourcing security monitoring to MSSPs often results in a flawed workflow and a lack of true escalation to capable incident response teams. She emphasized that effective incident response requires a highly skilled incident commander with deep technical knowledge, rapid decision-making authority, and an understanding of organizational politics, which is typically lacking in both internal IT departments and outsourced security providers. Felicia also pointed out the need for clear leadership and decision-making authority during incidents, as well as the ability to make immediate technical and policy changes without being hindered by organizational politics.

    Felicia discussed the limitations and risks of outsourced security services, emphasizing that while they may provide a false sense of security, they are not a substitute for internal capabilities and the need for organizations to maintain authority over their security decisions. She explored the challenges and risks associated with using managed security services providers and outsourcing MDR or SOC services, highlighting the importance of understanding service offerings and making informed decisions rather than relying on trust or price. Felicia concluded that while MSSPs might be suitable for very large organizations, direct purchasing from software manufacturers could often be a better option.

    Outsourced Security: Limitations and Risks

    Felicia discussed the limitations and risks of outsourced security services, emphasizing that while they may provide a false sense of security, they are not a substitute for internal capabilities. She highlighted the importance of understanding the limitations of basic security tools like Sentinel One basic licensing and the potential risks involved when using intermediaries. Felicia stressed the need for organizations to have the authority to make changes based on real data and real issues in their environment, rather than relying solely on outsourced services.

    MSSP Risks and Vendor Selection

    Felicia discussed the challenges and risks associated with using managed security services providers (MSSPs) and outsourcing MDR or SOC services. She highlighted the lack of visibility into configurations and processes when purchasing through distributors, which can lead to significant security gaps and risks. Felicia emphasized the importance of making informed decisions based on detailed understanding of service offerings, rather than relying solely on trust or price. She concluded that MSSPs should only be considered for very large organizations that require a large counterparty for liability and risk balancing, and even then, direct purchasing from software manufacturers might be a better option.

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    28 mins
  • AI Use Insights and the Dangers of UCaaS
    Jul 30 2025
    Shift your perspective on AI as Felicia shares her insights on integrating artificial intelligence into daily life and business operations, highlighting the importance of risk management. Learn about the hidden dangers of AI, and gain practical guidance on ensuring your data's confidentiality and integrity. Dive into the realm of modern communication as Felicia unravels the complexities of Unified Communications as a Service (UCaaS), revealing the critical differences between real phone systems and UCaaS solutions. Understand why safeguarding your communication privacy could be more essential than cost and come away with a new appreciation for phone system security in an interconnected world. Felicia discussed data sovereignty and AI methodologies, emphasizing the importance of maintaining control over data while leveraging advanced analysis tools. She explored various phone system options and their security implications, particularly focusing on the risks of using UCaaS providers and the benefits of maintaining direct control over call routing and SIP providers. Felicia shared her experiences with Microsoft Copilot, highlighting its capabilities in document management and project estimation while emphasizing the need for understanding AI limitations and implementing proper security measures to mitigate risks. Next steps Organizations to implement data sovereignty policies and solutions, such as Microsoft Purview licensing, to protect data when using AI.IT consultants to assist organizations in setting up bounded AI research agents for deep analysis of specific datasets.Organizations to consider Microsoft Copilot for AI implementation, with a focus on ensuring data boundaries and security.Organizations to develop and enforce AI usage policies, including guidelines on handling personally identifiable information.Organizations to provide AI training for employees to ensure they understand and comply with AI policies and usage guidelines.Organizations to evaluate the security and privacy implications of using UCaaS providers and consider alternatives for phone systems.Organizations to consult with IT experts before implementing UCaaS solutions to assess potential risks to call security and privacy. Summary Data Sovereignty in AI Analysis Felicia discussed data sovereignty and the importance of managing data risk when using AI. She highlighted a methodology developed by Jay Valentine that allows organizations to maintain control over their data while still performing advanced analysis. Felicia also touched on the limitations of AI, noting that it often provides superficial answers rather than deep analysis. Finally, she briefly explained what UCaaS (Unified Communications as a Service) is, which seems to be a hot topic in the industry. Phone System Options and Hosting Felicia discussed the various options for phone systems, explaining that a real phone system involves having control over the phone system plane and the ability to choose a SIP provider for voice calls over the internet. She clarified that a real phone system can be hosted on a virtual machine, either on-premises or in the cloud, and may or may not involve desk phones. UCaaS Security Risks and Alternatives Felicia discussed the security risks of using Unified Communications as a Service (UCaaS) providers for phone systems, particularly concerning call routing through foreign countries. She explained that such routing can compromise call privacy and security, as demonstrated through her testing of various UCaaS providers. Felicia emphasized that using a vetted SIP provider and maintaining control over call routing is crucial for ensuring call quality, security, and privacy, especially for sensitive communications. She advised against using UCaaS solutions like RingCentral or Zoom for phone systems, highlighting their security flaws and lack of cost-effectiveness compared to on-premise solutions. Data Sovereignty in AI Solutions Felicia discussed the importance of data sovereignty in artificial intelligence, emphasizing that accessible solutions exist for organizations of all sizes. She highlighted Microsoft's Purview licensing for Microsoft 365 as a tool to secure data, allowing even small businesses to control where their data is stored and accessed. Felicia also recommended Microsoft Copilot as an AI tool that respects user-defined boundaries, noting that it is currently the most practical option for most organizations. AI Copilot Usage and Limitations Felicia shared her experiences using AI Copilot, highlighting both its strengths and limitations. She demonstrated how Copilot can effectively assist in finding specific documents, improving document readability, and generating graphics and PowerPoint presentations from text. While Copilot was successful in these tasks, Felicia noted that its effectiveness varied, with a 50% success rate in creating graphics and room for improvement in converting documents into videos. Maximizing Copilot ...
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    29 mins
  • Unmasking the IT Assessment Myth: Why Most Are Just Sales Tools
    Jul 3 2025
    In this episode of Breakfast Bytes, host Felicia King delves into the controversial world of IT assessments, often considered a deceptive sales tool rather than a vital business instrument. Drawing from years of experience, Felicia shares her insights into the improper paradigms surrounding assessments, highlighting how they frequently mislead businesses with daunting price tags and negligible results. Felicia recounts numerous encounters with frustrated business leaders who have spent exorbitant amounts, such as $20,000, on assessments that they didn't understand how to utilize. She unveils the reality that many assessments merely serve as a distraction, leading to further confusion rather than providing clear solutions. Throughout the episode, Felicia emphasizes the importance of targeted analysis: understanding the most critical problems and prioritizing them rather than attempting to 'boil the ocean' with expensive and comprehensive assessments. She shares her methodology of efficient, experience-driven evaluations and warns against "free assessments," which often turn out to be cleverly disguised marketing traps that create confusion instead of clarity while leaving vulnerabilities in your environment. Tune in for an eye-opening narrative on why most IT assessments might not be worth your time or money, and discover smarter ways to identify and fix your IT issues with strategic precision. https://qpcsecurity.com/choosing-the-right-consultant-to-run-assessments-on-your-environment/ Quick recap Felicia King discussed the limitations and pitfalls of IT industry assessments, emphasizing the need for focused evaluations that identify and prioritize the top problems rather than attempting comprehensive solutions. She warned against external IT service providers using assessment tools as sales tactics and highlighted the importance of proper vetting and consultation with internal IT departments before implementing external tools. Felicia recommended exploring the CISO Community Defense Model for risk management and emphasized the critical need to focus on top IT strategy categories while avoiding misleading "free" assessments, advocating for comprehensive evaluations led by experienced security professionals. Summary Effective IT Assessment Strategies Felicia King discussed the pitfalls of IT industry assessments, explaining that most are ineffective and serve as sales tools rather than valuable insights. She emphasized that a proper assessment should identify the top 5-6 problems and their prioritization, rather than attempting to solve everything, which can be costly and unnecessary. Felicia recommended a focused approach, suggesting that a 2.5-hour assessment could reveal enough information to address significant issues without the need for an exhaustive analysis. She also advised against expensive assessments, noting that anything over $10,000 is likely unnecessary, and warned against free assessments, which she described as misleading. External IT Assessment Tool Risks Felicia warned against allowing external IT service providers to install assessment tools in company environments without proper vetting. She explained that such tools are often used as a sales tactic to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt between the incumbent IT service provider and the company seeking their services. Felicia emphasized that executive management should not make decisions about installing external tools without consulting the internal IT department and conducting a thorough assessment of potential risks and impacts. She shared a personal example of a large campus where a COO was tricked into allowing an external provider to install assessment tools, which led to a security breach and other issues. Manipulated Endpoint Assessment Incident Felicia described an incident where a company conducted an assessment using software on sensitive endpoints, but the results were manipulated by intentionally incorporating data from a separate organization to create misleading findings. She explained that the assessment team was incompetent and had engaged in malfeasance to cover up their inability to gather meaningful data from the hardened environment. Felicia emphasized that this was not an isolated incident, but rather a common practice in the industry, highlighting the importance of having qualified personnel conduct assessments and the need for a correct paradigm in assessment strategies. CIS Defense Model for Business Felicia recommended exploring the CIS Community Defense Model, an international standard for risk management and mitigation, which she covers in a webinar. She emphasized that executive leaders often view security investments as expenses, but highlighted the potential for returns through innovation and risk reduction. Felicia shared her company's experience providing enterprise-grade security for small environments at competitive prices, and stressed the importance of understanding the model to make informed ...
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    28 mins
  • Navigating Financial Risk: Insights from Chris Bellchamber
    Jun 6 2025

    In this engaging episode of Breakfast Bytes, host Felicia King invites wealth manager and seasoned investment specialist Chris Belchamber to share his 41 years of industry insight. Dive into a rich narrative exploring risk management from two unique perspectives: technology and finance. As Chris unveils his journey towards shaping informed risk takers, listeners are guided through his groundbreaking efforts in establishing clear success benchmarks while unveiling tips on tax efficiency and strategic asset management.

    Chris reveals the practical steps he's taking in democratizing financial clarity, from publishing his insightful book, "Invest Like the Best," to launching informative online platforms for both comprehensive financial guidance and free educational resources. As the narrative unfolds, learn about Chris's diverse strategies—from using sophisticated tools like the Calmar Ratio in investment analysis to collaborating with global professionals for unparalleled estate planning advice.

    https://chris-belchamber.com/

    This episode is the latest in our series on risk management practices. Chris' expertise blends risk management and wealth preservation. He offers sage advice on evaluating investment advisors effectively.

    Resources Chris refers to:

    https://maxifiplanner.com/

    https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/whyib/overview.php

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    27 mins