In this episode of She Who Dares Wins, Michelle sits down with Anna, Arts Director at Sunny Bank Mills, to explore what it really means to dare in your career and life. From experimental theatre and large-scale cultural production at Leeds 2023, to community-focused curation in a former textile mill, Anna shares how she stepped off the traditional career ladder to build a lifestyle job that actually fits her values.

They discuss the WoW Barn project – a 24‑hour build with 300 women and non-binary people – the realities of work in the arts, the tension between ambition and burnout, and the courage it takes to be radically honest about what you really want, including the prospect of starting a family.

• Daring can mean changing direction, not just climbing higher
• Anna talks about leaving a “successful” trajectory in large-scale cultural events when she realised the next logical steps (EP, Director of Programmes) didn’t align with the life she wanted.
• The WoW Barn: women, non-binary people and agency in construction
• The 24-hour timber build with 300 women and non-binary people challenged ideas about who construction is “for” and gave many participants their first experience of building and tools – with powerful confidence and identity shifts.
• Redefining what an art gallery can be
• At Sunny Bank Mills, Anna focuses on accessibility and community:
• A gallery on a village high street, not just in a city centre
• A zine library and touchable pieces to break down shame and intimidation
• Welcoming honest feedback from locals who feel real ownership of the space
• Curating with integrity (not just what sells)
• As Arts Director of a commercial gallery, Anna balances:
• Work that’s easy to sell (e.g. Yorkshire landscapes)
• With pieces that expand horizons, communicate lived experience, and make people think
• She wants to stand beside every work and confidently say why it’s on the wall.
• Lifestyle job vs endless growth
• Moving from freelancing and high-intensity projects to a family-run, community-rooted site has shifted Anna’s view of success:
• One “hat” instead of six
• Daily connection with artists, locals, and a historic site of making
• Space to prioritise work–life balance over constant “more, bigger, faster”.
• Honesty about motherhood and identity
• Anna shares two “dares” for herself:
• Returning to horse riding as a hobby
• Seriously considering starting a family
• She talks openly about fears around losing identity, career impact, and inherited anxieties many career-driven women feel.
• A dare for other women
• Anna’s challenge:

• [0:00] – Intro: Anna’s background in theatre, experimental live art & producing
• [0:17]–[7:55] – Leeds, European Capital of Culture bid & the birth of Leeds 2023
• [7:55]–[13:47] – The WoW Barn: 24-hour build, women in construction, empowerment stories
• [13:47]–[20:12] – Leaving Leeds 2023 & landing the Arts Director role at Sunny Bank Mills
• [20:12]–[30:37] – Making art accessible: village gallery, community feedback, zine library, touching the art
• [30:37]–[43:19] – What it really means to curate: taste vs sales, contemporary craft, and the “she’s a keeper” piece
• [43:19]–[49:44] – Lifestyle careers, work–life balance, family-run business culture, unlearning toxic work patterns
• [49:44]–[58:35] – Daring to ride horses again, thinking about starting a family, and identity as a career-driven woman
• [58:35]–end – Anna’s dare to listeners: radical honesty about the paths you’re on

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This week’s dare:

Michelle invites you to step out of your comfort zone in the most human way possible: by really listening to someone else’s story. Not half-listening, not waiting for your turn to talk – but giving someone the space, time, and curiosity to share who they are beneath the surface.

In this episode, Michelle talks about:

• Why we think we know people, but usually only know the surface version of their story
• What working in construction taught her about asking one simple question and then just… leaving space
• How her ADHD and love of telling her own story means she has to consciously practice listening as a skill
• A recent controversial USA Hockey / Trump story in the media and why she’s curious about the quiet voice in the back of the room whose perspective we never hear
• The way podcast guests often come on to talk about something totally different to what they’re known for online

Practical questions you can try this week:

• “What’s your guilty pleasure?”
• “If you had a weekend with zero responsibilities, what would you do?”
• “What kind of music are you into – and what was the last gig you went to?”

These questions:

• Take conversation beyond small talk
• Help you see people as multilayered humans, not just job titles
• Make others feel seen, heard, and appreciated

Key takeaways:

• Listening is not passive – it’s intentional and courageous
• Silences and gaps are where the real story often appears
• You don’t need to turn every chat into therapy; just be curious and see where the conversation wants to go
• When you truly listen, both of you walk away feeling more connected

This week’s dare:

Mentioned in this episode:

• Dare Club Newsletter & Waiting List sign up here: https://stan.store/shewhodareswins
• First limited-edition drop of the She Dares Wins clothing range launching mid-March. www.shewhodareswins.com
• Use code POD10 for 10% off at shedareswins.com.

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Claudia joins Michelle to share how someone who is “really, really scared of heights” became a glider pilot, instructor, and member of the British gliding team. From panic on step ladders to flying at 12,000 feet in Australia, Claudia breaks down the reality of gliding: the tactics, the weather, the landouts in farmers’ fields, and the joy of silent flight. She also talks candidly about pressure in competition, being a woman in a male‑dominated aviation world, and how “just going to have fun” transformed her performance on the world stage.

Claudia’s fear and how she flies anyway

• Claudia still has a genuine fear of heights and can have panic attacks on ladders and chairlifts.
• In a glider, however, she feels safe and in control—until a vintage open‑cockpit flight triggered a mid‑air panic attack that she had to talk herself through alone.

How she fell into gliding and never looked back

• She first tried gliding at a small German club while at university in Cologne, after being told, “We’re all scared of heights, don’t worry.”

What competitive gliding really looks like

• Glider racing is like “aerial chess” and often compared to sailing: pilots fly a set task around turning points and back to base; fastest wins.

Field landings and safety in gliding

• Landing in farmers’ fields (“landing out”) is a normal and trained-for part of cross‑country gliding.
• Pilots are taught how to pick safe fields, plan a circuit, and land smoothly; most landouts are “non‑events.”
• Gliders have a single main wheel, can be disassembled on site, and trailered home. August stubble fields are ideal, as they minimise damage to crops and aircraft.

Gliders, engines and why she feels safer without one

• A glider is essentially a normal aircraft without an engine: same controls (rudder, ailerons, elevator), but designed to glide efficiently.
• Many modern gliders have small retractable engines for “limping home,” but Claudia’s 51‑year‑old glider doesn’t.
• She actually relaxes in the motor glider only once she’s in the landing circuit with the throttle closed—“Now I’m in a glider. Now I know what I’m doing.”

Travel, childhood and a life of exploring

• Claudia was born in Afghanistan and grew up in countries like Nigeria, Bangladesh and Ivory Coast due to her father’s work in development projects.
• Returning to Germany at eight, she already knew she wanted to live abroad and travel—and still feels childlike excitement on big commercial aircraft.

Dealing with pressure and rediscovering fun

• After rapid progress—first comp in 2006, first Women’s Worlds in 2013—she began putting huge pressure on herself.
• One nationals with eight amazing flying days was “miserable” because of self‑imposed expectations.
• Her turning point: ignore yesterday’s scores, focus only on today’s flight, and prioritise fun. Once she did that, her flying improved and results followed (including a silver medal at the Women’s World Gliding Championship in the UK).

1. [00:01:34] – Claudia introduced on the “She Who Dares Wins” podcast
2. [00:02:00] – “Really scared of heights… and a British gliding team member”
3. [00:04:16] – First gliding lesson in Germany and signing up the same day
4. [00:07:38] – What competition gliding is and why it’s like sailing
5. [00:13:55] – Landing in farmers’ fields and how gliders are taken apart
6. [00:19:18] – Why she feels safer in a glider than in a powered aircraft
7. [00:28:06] – Winning a silver medal at the Women’s World Gliding Championship
8. [00:33:43] – Women in gliding, “dinosaurs” and the power of allies

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