Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.

IN THIS CONVERSATION:

• Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what does
• What Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestly
• What Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doing
• Why the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expert
• Moving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next step
• Why discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churches
• How Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quiz
• The "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right now
• Mark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formation

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• markscandrette.com — Mark's website
• reimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organization
• Fuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry program
• Books mentioned:
  • Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette
  • The Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette

RELATED EPISODES:

• The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
• The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger
• The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder

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Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on music
• ECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff serves
• Books mentioned:
  • World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff Crosby
  • Every Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelvey
  • A Diary of Private Prayer, by John Baillie
  • Reading While Black, by Esau McCaulley
  • The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone
  • Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. Bailey
  • Plainsong, by Kent Haruf
  • Eventide, by Kent Haruf
  • Benediction, by Kent Haruf
  • Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis
  • The Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan Manning
  • A Touch of Wonder, by Arthur Gordon

RELATED EPISODES:

• Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby
• Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby

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Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.
• Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.
• Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.
• Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.
• Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.
• Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.
• Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.
• Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.
• Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.
• Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.
• Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.
• Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.
• Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.
• Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.
• Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
• IDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)
• Books mentioned:
  • Taking Good Care, by Jana Holliday
  • Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • Designing Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • The Art of Innovation, by Tom Kelley

RELATED EPISODE'S:

• Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl Herr
• Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike Bonem
• Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce

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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.