Laurie Stone and Richard Toon—writers, artists, and married partners—join Laura Federico to explore desire as a creative force and the relationship between vulnerability and art-making. They discuss why desiring is more pleasurable than being desired, the etymology of desire as "wishing for what the stars would bring," and how writers must create space for readers without needing anything from them. The conversation moves through the dangers of self-expression versus art-making, the role of embarrassment and failure in honest writing, and how gender constricts experience. They reveal the surprising emotional dividend of their recent marriage after years together, and why looking bad on the page is essential to good art.

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Laura Federico

The Cycle Book

Laurie's Substack

Richard's Substack

Their Vows Column

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03:17 — Is it better to desire or to be desired?

03:35 — Richard on being a desirous person all his life

04:01 — The etymology of desire: "to wish for what the stars would bring"

06:41 — "Desire fulfilled is desire destroyed"

08:00 — How Substack closes the loop of reciprocal desire

09:40 — Teaching readers how to read you over time

12:10 — The narrator can't need anything from the reader

16:02 — Writing as "coming and going rather than beginning and ending"

16:43 — When readers misidentify the project

18:07 — "Welcome to our generation"—on constriction in younger writers

19:18 — The human condition: "the little naked ape trying to make sense of it"

21:19 — Art-making as more like making shoes than self-expression

23:40 — "Looking bad is the best thing in the world for art"

28:26 — How Laurie proposed

29:27 — The marriage dividend

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Our music, Hit Her Up, is written by Nakisso Peralta and performed by Chillers.

Grammy Award-winning violinist and acclaimed author Ling Ling Huang joins host Laura Federico to explore the tangled relationship between envy, desire, and creative life. From unwanted projections as a child prodigy to discovering her bisexuality later in life, Ling Ling discusses how she moved from being passively desired to actively desiring—and why that shift changed everything.

They dive into the intersection of envy and love in female friendships, betrayal as a creative catalyst, the torture and liberation of jealousy, and what happens when you finally achieve the thing you've been choking on bitterness to reach. Plus: AI as confessional, pregnancy mysteries, Luddite parenting, why friction makes music (and relationships) worth experiencing, and how showing up—even when it hurts—might be the most radical act of all.

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Laura Federico

The Cycle Book

Ling Ling Huang

Natural Beauty

Immaculate Conception

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04:13 — Welcome to Ling Ling Huang

04:45 — The central question: Is it better to desire or to be desired?

06:12 — Traveling alone as a young violinist and inappropriate adult attention

07:17 — The active versus passive nature of desire

08:10 — The torture of envy as a human experience

09:14 — Competitive music conservatory culture and coded critique

10:24 — When her best friend cheated with her boyfriend

11:45 — The continuation of love after betrayal and stepping back as an observer

13:01 — Showing up even when it's painful

15:25 — Writing as a "baby writer" and wanting everyone to talk about envy

16:44 — "Choking on the bitterness"

19:05 — Debut anxiety, goalposts, and comparing yourself to other authors

21:00 — The mystery of our bodies, especially in pregnancy

27:23 — Using ChatGPT as a confessional space

29:12 — What happens when human relationships have more friction?

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Our music, Hit Her Up, is written by Nakisso Peralta and performed by Chillers.

Aidan Ryan and Rachelle Toarmino—two award-winning writers who are also married—join Laura Federico to explore desire, ambition, and creative partnership. They discuss the ecstatic "adrenaline rush" of making art, the relationship between absence and wanting, and how they navigate power dynamics in both their work and relationship. From Rachelle's viral poem "You up?" to Aidan's examination of his aunt and uncle's art world journey, they reveal how desire evolves from abstract wanting to deep connection, why intimacy matters more than fame, and what it means to think through writing as two people building a life together.

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Laura Federico

The Cycle Book

Rachelle Toarmino

Hell Yeah

You up?

Aidan Ryan

I Am Here You Are Not I Love You

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TIMESTAMPS

05:14 — Is it better to desire or to be desired?

06:23 — Desire as the engine of creative work

07:51 — The relationship between absence and desire

08:53 — Desire vs. ambition in the life of an artist

10:00 — Aidan's early encounters with publishing and fame

12:32 — The discomfort of being desired and misinterpreted

13:24 — Rachelle on rejecting careerist poetry tracks

14:56 — "I want to be read because I want to be felt and understood"

16:59 — What ecstasy feels like when writing a poem

18:21 — How Aidan and Rachelle met

21:41 — "Our understanding of our desires improves as we age"

22:06 — What changes as the relationship evolves

23:46 — The intimacy of direct address in Rachelle's poetry

25:15 — Finding the out-loud voice of new poems

27:07 — The story behind "You up?" the viral Tumblr poem

29:38 — Gender roles in creative relationships

33:41 — Power dynamics beyond patriarchal stereotypes

34:52 — Where desire and power intersect

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Our music, Hit Her Up, is written by Nakisso Peralta and performed by Chillers.