Dr. Michael R. Montgomery (PhD, MA, MSc, MSW, LCSW) is an existential psychoanalyst who represents a radical wing of contemporary depth psychology—one deeply influenced by R.D. Laing's anti-psychiatry tradition, phenomenology, and a fierce commitment to humanising extreme mental states. Based between Boston, Massachusetts and having deep roots in post-conflict Belfast, Montgomery positions himself as both clinician and activist, bridging psychoanalytic practice with community healing, peace work, and cultural critique.
His signature concept—"psychophobia" (society's fear of the mind and extreme mental states)—anchors a body of work challenging psychiatric medicalisation, advocating for phenomenological approaches that honour lived experience, and reclaiming psychosis, mania, and other "extreme states" as potentially transformative rather than purely pathological.
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In this conversation, Michael Montgomery shares his journey through various philosophical and spiritual traditions, emphasising the importance of bridging Eastern and Western thought in psychotherapy. He discusses the role of silence, community, and personal experience in healing, while also addressing the complexities of faith and human nature. The dialogue explores the concept of psychophobia and the transformative power of music and community in fostering connection and understanding.
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🔗 Links
- Michael's podcast: https://psychophobia.com/
- Michael's website: https://drmontgomery.com/
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⏳Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:34 How Michael knows Jon Mills
03:04 The art of speaking across ideological lines
04:36 Michael's relationship with Buddhism
08:00 Existential psychoanalysis
09:33 The R.D. Laing lineage
12:06 The importance of existential psychotherapy
13:02 Michael's experience growing up in the Troubles in Belfast
13:43 Michael's quest for answers
16:26 Michael's World Record attempt in the silent room
21:23 The endurance of spiritual lineages
22:38 Why no peace on Earth?
26:19 What Buddhism offers
27:26 The revival of relationship with Christianity
31:43 Does God exist?
37:02 What is psychophobia?
46:47 The McDonaldisation of healthcare
52:12 Michael's disillusion with the mental health system
57:21 Plurality: do we have many selves?
01:06:41 Michael's experience with dreams and consciousness
01:08:53 Elevated states and mental health
01:14:35 How dreams can change your perception of reality
01:17:08 Voices, language patterns and the nature of psyche
01:21:06 Michael's guest recommendation: Ken Wilber
01:22:11 Where to get more from Michael

Layman Pascal is a Canadian "feral philosopher" and host of The Integral Stage podcast who has become a central connector and theorist in the overlapping worlds of metamodernism, integral theory, and Game B. His signature contributions—the Metaphysics of Adjacency, the Integration Surplus Model of spirituality, and Metashamanics—offer a sophisticated yet playful bridge between abstract philosophy and embodied transformation. Known for his capacity to hold complexity with humour, Pascal brings both philosophical rigour and playful irreverence to questions of meaning-making in an age of metacrisis.

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In this conversation, we talk Nietzsche, metashamanism, and the ontology and epistemology of entities.We delve into the role of personal experience in shaping philosophical thought, and the implications of neurodiversity in understanding shamanic practices. The dialogue also touches on the nature of imagination, creativity, and the unpredictability of inspiration, exploring our different approaches to life from the moist pragmatism to dry scholarism.

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🔗 More from Layman

Layman's website: https://www.laymanpascal.com/

Layman's Substack: https://laymanpascal.substack.com/

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⏳ Timestamps:

00:00 Intro - the Feral Philosopher

03:19 Blaise Pascal's spiritual note

05:18 Nietzsche and the irrationality of philosophers

08:55 The power of irrationality in humanity's story

10:41 Layman's book on Nietzsche

12:00 The Integral Nietzsche

14:13 What if Nietzsche hadn't gone mad?

16:06 The enlightened Nietzsche

19:33 The shamanic Nietzsche

22:04 What is metashamanics?

23:07 Shamanic neurodivergence

26:26 Attributes of the well-adjusted shaman

28:33 Liminality and the epochal emergence of the shamanic

31:31 The shamanoid Elvis

33:17 The reality of entities

37:05 Layman Pascal: pragmatist?

47:12 The power of trance

51:50 The muse as entity

56:34 Layman's guest recommendation

57:59 More from Layman

Dr Stefano Carpani is an Italian Jungian psychoanalyst, lecturer at the C.G. Jung Institute Zürich, and scientific consultant at Pacifica Graduate Institute. At 46, he has emerged as a leading voice amongst a new generation of Jungian thinkers, bridging depth psychology with sociology, critical theory, and contemporary political questions.

In this conversation, Stefano and I explore the landscape of contemporary Jungian thought, beginning with his distinction between Jungian, post-Jungian, and neo-Jungian approaches—where neo-Jungians like himself aim to make analytical psychology relevant to 21st-century crises beyond the consulting room. We discuss his I+I theory, which synthesises Jung's individuation with sociologist Ulrich Beck's individualization, arguing that contemporary identity formation requires both psychological and sociological lenses to understand. Stefano shares insights from his award-winning work on the fall of the Berlin Wall, explaining how the numinous—an autonomous psychic force Jung described—operates in collective historical transformation, suggesting that major shifts require not just political will but adequate psychic conditions and "the attraction of the symbol." We explore the concept of enantiodromia, Jung's idea that psychological and cultural movements tend to revert to their opposites when pushed too far, applying this to contemporary political polarisation and populism. Throughout, Stefano makes a compelling case for why Jungian analysts must engage courageously with war, democracy, and social transformation, bringing depth psychology out of the clinic and into public discourse.

🔗 Links

- For Jungian monthly talks organised by Stefano: https://www.instagram.com/jungianeum_/ and https://www.youtube.com/@psychosocialwednesdays1944/videos

- Stefano's YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHpWRYvgyhifcVkNGk9Tq-A

⏳ Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

01:08 Stefano, the international Jungian

02:21 Jungians vs. Post-Jungians vs. Neo-Jungians

07:27 The Post-Jungians

10:15 The Neo-Jungians

12:50 Classical Jungians vs. Developmental vs. Archetypal

15:40 James's case for a Jungian textbook

20:01 The Jungian language barrier

23:20 The hindrance of jargon

27:11 Stefano's sociological Jungian work

31:49 Bringing the unconscious into everyday life

34:52 Covid through the lens of Jung

35:49 The fallacy of the end of history

38:05 The fall of the Berlin Wall as a numinous event

43:33 Moments of memetic infection

47:16 History makers as artists

49:42 Jungian lens on contemporary politics

50:53 Returning to memetic infection

58:24 What is enantiodromia?

01:00:12 Populism and energetic release

01:04:33 Stefano's guest recommendations

01:05:18 Where to find out more about Stefano