In our third episode, Stephen Baker and Aaron Prelock sit down to talk about the part of ministry that many traditional seminary programs simply cannot simulate: the mess.

Theological mess. Historical mess. The mess of sinners and the mess we ourselves bring to the work. Aaron and Stephen talk about why so many young men set out to be the pastor whose church will not have these problems, why preaching and pastoral care cannot be split apart, and why the "clean machine" expectation — that Christians do not sin and good pastors do not either — quietly shuts down the work of sanctification it claims to protect. An old line surfaces near the end: a pastor should smell like his sheep.

0:00 — Introduction
1:30 — What do we mean by "the mess"?
4:15 — Church history is not historical reenactment
7:00 — The young pastor with stars in his eyes
10:45 — Theoretical theology vs. practical theology
13:30 — Leviticus 16 and the linen robe
17:00 — Hospital waiting rooms and Job's counselors
22:00 — Preaching is pastoral care
27:30 — Over-correcting and damned with faint praise
33:00 — Where do you go when you realize you need to grow?
37:00 — Owen, self-knowledge, and the wounded healer
41:30 — The expectation that Christians do not sin
46:00 — Sexual sin, abuse, and the "clean machine" church
51:00 — The hazmat suit: justification before sanctification
56:00 — A pastor should smell like his sheep
1:00:00 — Hospitality, marriage, and the witness of small mercies