In this episode of The Resilience Lab, recorded live at the Workspaces Conference in Napa, Rex Miller sits down with Sara Escobar and Corrine Murray, co-authors of the new book Work Then Place: a bold reframing of how organizations should think about work, leadership, and the workplace.

With decades of experience spanning Hulu, Netflix, Riot Games, CBRE, WeWork, and American Express, Sara and Corrine bring rare, hard-earned insight into why so many workplace strategies fail…and what actually works.

This conversation goes beyond office design and hybrid policy debates to tackle the real issues holding organizations back:

• Why defining work must come before designing place
• How fear and outdated management models undermine performance
• Why behavior change, not buildings, is the hardest and most essential challenge
• What leaders and managers need to do differently to create resilient, high-performing teams
• How to operationalize purpose, measure real work, and adapt in constant change

If you’re a leader, manager, workplace strategist, HR professional, or anyone navigating the future of work, this episode offers practical insight, grounded frameworks, and a clear call to rethink how work actually gets done.

This isn’t about perks, ping-pong tables, or mandates.


It’s about making work suck less…on purpose.

Subscribe to The Resilience Lab for conversations on resilience, leadership, workplace strategy, and the human side of performance, and share this episode with someone who’s wrestling with how work is changing.

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By the 1990s, Patrick MacLeamy had seen enough.

Projects were slipping. RFIs were exploding. Clients were frustrated. And as Virtual Design and Construction (VDC) entered the industry, it exposed a hard truth: the problem wasn’t talent, it was the system.

In Part 2 of this conversation, Patrick MacLeamy explains why he refused to accept “that’s construction” as an answer—and how one uncomfortable question led him into a small, unlikely collaboration that helped lay the foundation for modern project delivery.

This episode traces the origin of:

* Open standards and object-based coordination

* The early thinking behind BIM and interoperability

* A leadership mindset focused on fixing systems, not blaming people

But this isn’t history for history’s sake.

Thirty years later, the same forces, complexity, fragmentation, and outdated assumptions, are pressing on our industry again. This episode is for anyone working in architecture, construction, or workplace strategy who feels we’re stuck and wonders what it takes to change course.

If you’ve ever looked at the way we work and thought, this isn’t good enough, this conversation is for you.

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Before Patrick MacLeamy led HOK, or drew the sketch that reshaped how the world delivers buildings, he was a kid growing up inside an oil refinery, learning resilience the hard way. This is the untold origin story of a pioneer who didn’t wait for permission to change the industry.

In this episode, you’ll follow Patrick’s hero’s journey, from refinery fences to the drafting boards at Illinois, through the scrappy early years of HOK, the near-death crises, the mentors, the mistakes, and the moments that nearly broke him but ultimately made him.

Patrick faced the same problems we all face: doubt, setbacks, resistance, broken systems, and he chose to push forward anyway. His story explains seminal moments in our industry's history and gives you a blueprint for shaping its future.

If you’ve ever felt the tug to challenge the status quo, to do work that matters, or to become the kind of leader who leaves things better than they found them, this episode is that invitation.

Press play. Your call to adventure starts here.

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