On this episode of This vs. That, we celebrate our 80th episode by pulling back the curtain on eight seasons of the podcast. We reflect on what we've learned through this journey, discuss the original intention behind the show, and share how the podcast has evolved over time.

We talk about finding our voice as co-hosts, the spiritual and emotional tone we hoped to create, and how our conversations have deepened from being more formal and topic-focused to becoming more pastoral, honest, and comfortable sitting in complexity. We discuss how the podcast aims for wisdom rather than hot takes, creating space for curiosity over combativeness.

Our guest host Evan Magelssen asks about memorable conversations, Brian's process for writing questions tailored to each guest, and what has surprised us most about the podcast's reach—particularly how pastors have found the episodes timely and applicable to their ministry challenges. We also share how different guests bring unique energy to each episode.

Throughout the conversation, we express gratitude for our listeners who join us week after week, and our hope that this podcast continues to be a blessing as we navigate life's tensions together without rushing to tidy answers.

On this episode of This vs. That, we explore a tension that many in ministry face: being needed versus being known. We're joined by Rebekah Hannah and Kari Ann Tilson, co-founders of Rode Leadership, a partner organization of Anchored Virtual.

We discuss Rode Leadership's upcoming pastor's wives cohort and examine why this topic is especially relevant for pastor's wives. Pastor's wives often feel the pull of being needed by many people for many things, facing overwhelming expectations from their church communities while struggling to find safe places for authentic relationships.

Throughout the conversation, we explore how being needed can become a trap where we find our identity and value in what we do rather than who we are in Christ. We discuss the subtle shift that happens when our identity moves from being rooted in Christ to being rooted in our output and performance.

We also talk about what it means to have confidence in Christ—not confidence in our abilities or results, but confidence in the person of Jesus Christ who calls us, equips us, and gives us value. This confidence enables us not only to serve well but also to be known authentically.

We address the practical challenges pastor's wives face in finding genuine friendships where they can be vulnerable and known as individuals, not just as extensions of their husband's ministry. The conversation includes wisdom about focusing on specific areas of giftedness rather than trying to meet every need, and the importance of finding trustworthy people with whom deeper relationships can develop.

Finally, we discuss how the pastor's wives cohort creates a safe space for women experiencing similar challenges across different contexts to share, grow, and realize they're not alone.

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To get 25% off the Pastors' Wives Cohort, visit www.rodeleadership.com/pwc and use the code TVT25

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Jared Wilson to explore the tension between gospel-centered and issue-driven ministry. We ask whether gospel centeredness was just another evangelical trend or if it remains essential to the DNA of healthy Christians and churches.

Jared breaks down what gospel-centered ministry actually means—centering on Christ in Scripture, trusting grace for heart-level change, and finding our validation in Christ's performance rather than our own. In contrast, issue-driven ministry hinges its hope for change on cultural topics or headlines rather than the announcement of the gospel.

We discuss why some have moved away from gospel centrality, exploring concerns about pragmatism and the temptation to lean on other approaches when change seems slow. Jared offers practical wisdom on how to recognize when we've drifted from gospel-centered ministry—often it starts when the gospel begins to feel perfunctory or less interesting than the cultural issue of the day.

Throughout our conversation, we grapple with how to keep the gospel central when cultural issues demand our attention, and how to avoid treating the gospel like an empty Trojan rabbit—something we've forgotten to include in our ministry altogether.