What happens when you take a leap without knowing exactly how it will turn out?

In this bonus episode, Krista sits down with Bernie and Perry Klebahn, who now teaches The Designer in Society, to reflect on the evolution of the course — and the changing philosophies behind it. Recorded on the eve of the Stanford d.school’s 20th anniversary, two years after Bernie’s retirement, this conversation is part history, part love letter to teaching, and part reminder that learning often works best when you’re willing to take the leap before you have all the answers.

We talk about why doing—not overthinking—has always been at the course’s core. Bernie and Perry touch on the beloved class projects, taking small but meaningful actions, and creating a community built on presence, trust, and real conversation.

00:00 A willingness to give things a chance

00:59 Perry’s path to Stanford, through industry, and teaching with Bernie

01:44 The legendary art Professor Matt Kahn

04:31 How The Designer in Society evolved with the d.school and Perry

11:29 More on projects and taking the first real step

17:11 Prototyping life decisions with projects

22:06 Long-form reading, presence, and real conversation

23:13 No absences and don’t be late (or you fail the course)

24:08 Exercises that create trust and discomfort

25:56 Letting the class evolve

27:20 Appreciations & Regrets

32:15 The Blind Walk exercise

Follow us on Instagram⁠ @yelloweyedcatspodcast⁠ for fun extras.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson

Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this *mini* bonus episode, Bernie and David Janka, our guest from episode 11, share the advice they give students when asked about classes, careers, and first jobs.

Bernie likes to tell students that planning often doesn’t work — life is full of chance and change — and to embrace it. David encourages students to explore, enjoy the detours, and turn “mistakes” (aka learnings...) into part of their story.

Together, their wisdom: expect the unexpected, and enjoy the voyage of discovery.

01:08 Bernie: Logic doesn’t matter, embrace change

01:52 David: Exploration over perfection

02:44 The value of misinterpretation and detours

04:00 Connecting your diverse interests into a story

04:23 Krista’s wrap-up: enjoy the voyage, welcome the unexpected

Follow us on Instagram @yelloweyedcatspodcast for fun extras.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson

Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this (final official!) episode, Bernie reflects on how the most meaningful turns in life often come from chance rather than careful planning. He shares his own serendipitous journey to becoming a professor at Stanford (involving a case of two professors named Arnold), his unexpected entry into robotics, how a single phone call led to his pioneering work in design —and why saying “yes” at the right time matters.

We’re joined by David Janka, a physician-turned-designer and faculty member at Stanford’s d.school. David opens up about leaving medicine to explore design, how the Designer in Society class helped him navigate that transition, and why creating a physical project in the class, a gift for friends, became a pivotal part of his journey.

Together, we explore questions of work, purpose, and meaning, with a little help from Gandhi and E.F. Schumacher.

00:00 Life is a c***shoot: accidents that shape our paths

01:00 Bernie on chance and opportunity

02:34 The wrong Arnold: how Bernie got to Stanford

06:13 A phone call that led to robotics

07:10 Another call that sparked Designer in Society

09:03 Are we the type of people who say yes or no?

10:00 The blessing (and curse) of work

12:53 The “Who am I?” exercise

17:30 Introducing David Janka

21:16 David’s Designer in Society project

28:25 Serendipity, careers, and saying yes

30:29 Bernie’s Burning Man camp

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcatspodcast to see extras from this episode, like David's atrium staircase.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson