Hugh Mackay AO: Kindness = How Kindness Helps Us Survive

David welcomes one of Australia's most respected social researchers and authors, Hugh Mackay AO, for a deeply personal conversation about the state of our society and the transformative power of kindness.

Hugh reflects on his journey from a young researcher to a passionate advocate for social change. He describes the pivotal moment when his publisher encouraged him to move beyond simply reporting what is and begin exploring what should be. Beginning with The Good Life (2016), his work shifted from observing Australians to challenging us to build a kinder society.

The discussion explores loneliness as one of Australia's greatest public health challenges. Around one-third of Australians—and an alarming one-third of young adults aged 18–24—report feeling lonely most of the time. Hugh argues that digital connection can never replace the eye contact, conversation and human presence that help us truly belong.

He offers a simple but profound definition of kindness:

"Anything we do that shows another person we take them seriously—that they belong, that they are not overlooked or marginalised."

Drawing on archaeology, neuroscience, philosophy and history, Hugh argues that kindness is not a soft option but a survival skill. Research into why Homo sapiens survived while other human species disappeared suggests that our ability to form small, mutually supportive communities through cooperation and kindness was our greatest evolutionary advantage.

David shares the moving story of a young Canberra man who survived a suicide attempt and later said, "If someone had smiled at me, I couldn't have jumped." Together they discuss how simple acts of human connection can literally save lives.

The conversation also explores the idea of applying a kindness test to public policy—asking not only "Is this economically responsible?" but also "Is this kind? Is this inclusive? Does it respect our common humanity?" Hugh points to Jacinda Ardern's leadership as an example of compassion in public life and discusses the NDIS as kindness expressed through policy.

The episode also examines inequality, with 3.5 million Australians living below the poverty line, and argues that reducing poverty and strengthening neighbourhoods are essential to rebuilding trust and social cohesion.

David concludes by reading his original poem Kindness and the Klan, based on the true story of Jewish cantor Michael Weisser, whose persistent acts of compassion transformed a Ku Klux Klan Grand Dragon. Hugh reflects on the story as a powerful reminder that kindness can overcome hatred in ways force never can.

The episode closes with a preview of the next guest: former Socceroo and human rights advocate Craig Foster.

Key Themes

• Hugh's journey from researcher to advocate.
• Loneliness as one of Australia's greatest public health challenges.
• Kindness as making people feel seen, valued and included.
• Kindness as strength—not weakness.
• Why cooperation helped humanity survive.
• Listening as one of the greatest acts of kindness.
• Applying a kindness test to public policy.
• Strong communities begin with good neighbours.
• Poverty and inequality as drivers of division.
• Kindness and the Klan: a remarkable true story of compassion transforming hatred.