Episodes

  • 011: The Dance We're Fighting For: Sabbatical and Resistance in DC

    011: The Dance We're Fighting For: Sabbatical and Resistance in DC
    Oct 1 2025
    011: The Dance We're Fighting For: Sabbatical and Resistance in DC A Conversation on Rest, Resistance, and Ministry in Turbulent Times Podcast: The LOAM Podcast - A Conversation on a More Beautiful Gospel Hosts: Anthony Parrott and Tonetta Landis-Aina Episode Length: ~35 minutes Recording Context: First full day of federal government shutdown in DC, amid ICE raids, mass firings, and political turmoil Episode Summary After a long summer break, Anthony and Tonetta reunite to discuss Tonetta's sabbatical experience and what it means to do ministry in Washington, DC during a time of unprecedented crisis. This honest conversation explores the tensions between rest and resistance, pastoral care and prophetic action, and joy and suffering. Tonetta shares what surprised her about stepping away from ministry, while both hosts grapple with how progressive faith communities can stay awake to injustice without succumbing to burnout. "During the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we danced all night. And it was the dance that kept us in the fight because it was the dance we were fighting for." — Dan Savage Episode Highlights & Timestamps [00:00:00] Welcome Back & Sabbatical Energy Anthony and Tonetta reconnect after the summer break, with Tonetta bringing post-sabbatical energy and even downloading new apps. The conversation opens with the importance of listener feedback and sets the stage for discussing both sabbatical and ministry in crisis. [00:02:10] Sabbatical Interview Begins Anthony interviews Tonetta about her three-month sabbatical, exploring what she hoped for versus what actually happened. [00:03:22] What Were You Hoping For? Spending more time with her 3-year-old daughter before she started schoolExploring the theme of "home" after multiple moves in five yearsReading about place, gardens, and cultivating earthWhat didn't happen: organizing email and tech projectsDiscovery: Becoming very good at "puttering" - taking longer than expected to reach restful spaces The Bathrobe Moment: Anthony describes visiting Tonetta on a Sunday afternoon to find her in full sabbatical mode - in a bathrobe, completely at rest while her family attended church. [00:08:40] Chaos in the City, Rest at Home Did the intense summer in DC interrupt Tonetta's rest? Surprisingly, not much. She intentionally "holed up" in August knowing there would be plenty to do in September. As a Black queer woman in America, she notes that there's always suffering to be present to - but she won't survive if she stays constantly present to it. "I'm a black queer woman in America... when I have a chance to try to step away, I do. I won't survive if I just stay present to it consistently." On joy and resistance: Tonetta references Mary Oliver's poem "Don't Hesitate": "Joy is not made to be a crumb." When genuine joy happens, it is almost always appropriate to lean into it. [00:13:00] The Dance We Were Fighting For Discussion of Dan Savage's powerful quote about the AIDS crisis, and how it connects to T.S. Eliot's poetry about the Trinitarian dance. "At the still point of the turning world... at the still point, there the dance is." — T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets (Burnt Norton) Tonetta connects this to the idea that at the heart of the Trinity there is joy, love, and mutuality - and that the dance is what we're fighting for, the overflow of divine life. [00:14:41] What Did You Learn About Yourself as a Leader? Practicing Silence: Tonetta discovered the beauty of contemplative silence - not typical in the Pentecostal/charismatic spaces where she grew up. Learning to find God in silence at home, then recognizing that presence in unexpected quiet moments throughout the day. The Bible and Work: Tonetta realized how intertwined the Bible has become with her job. It's hard to approach Scripture in a lighthearted way when it's so associated with work. She started Lectio Divina but found herself wanting to "study" passages - which didn't feel good. A major takeaway: she needs to cultivate ways to disconnect the Bible from her work. Anthony's Lesson: Coming out of his own sabbatical, Anthony learned he has "two modes: uninvolved or in charge" - which is a problem. He had to learn to be okay with other people leading in ways he wouldn't, and that it won't hurt him. [00:18:09] What Did You Miss or Not Miss? The Surprise: Tonetta thought she'd visit synagogues, houses of worship, and connect with other church leaders. Instead, she just wanted to be home, pray, and listen to gospel music. Her family went to church while she "bathed in the silence." This gave her much more understanding and respect for congregants who want to step away from church sometimes. A congregant's response: "So now what you think is that we stay home to pray. I'm gonna just tell you that might not always be what we're doing, just to be clear." "My entire life I have been in gathered church spaces and I found it so ...
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    35 mins
  • 010: Rest as Resistance: Sabbath, Sabbaticals, and Becoming an Outlier

    010: Rest as Resistance: Sabbath, Sabbaticals, and Becoming an Outlier
    Jun 12 2025
    Rest as Resistance: Sabbath, Sabbaticals, and Becoming an Outlier Subtitle: A Conversation on Biblical Rest, Work Culture, and the Courage to Live Counter-Culturally Podcast: The LOAM Podcast - A Conversation on a More Beautiful Gospel Episode Type: Final episode with co-host before sabbatical Episode Summary In this deeply personal and theologically rich episode, hosts Anthony Parrott and the Reverend Sister Tonetta Landis-Aina explore the radical nature of rest in our productivity-obsessed culture. As Tonetta prepares for her first sabbatical, they dive into biblical perspectives on Sabbath, the resistance inherent in choosing rest, and how our earliest experiences with work and rest shape our adult practices. Key Takeaway: To practice true rest in our culture is to become "a fugitive from grind culture" and an outlier who chooses to live into the world as it should be, rather than accepting the relentless pace of late-stage capitalism. Episode Highlights & Timestamps [Opening] Being an Outlier Tonetta's upcoming sabbatical and the rarity of such policies in church workThe cultural confusion and sideways looks that come with extended restIntroduction to Tricia Hersey's concept of being "a fugitive from grind culture" "To be a fugitive is to break free... embracing becoming an outlier. To live into practices of rest, you have to accept that you will be an outlier." [Mid-Episode] What Did You Learn from Your Caregivers About Rest? Anthony's Story: Growing up with a father working brutal newspaper printing schedules, the family's disrupted rhythms, and the "I'll sleep when I'm dead" mentalityTonetta's Story: Middle-class upbringing with a hardworking teacher father who gamed the system for stability, and the tension between being and doingHow childhood experiences with work and rest shape adult approaches to Sabbath [Biblical Foundation] Bible and Rest Rhythms vs. Balance: Why Anthony believes balance is a lie and rhythms are biblicalGenesis Patterns: Daily, weekly, yearly, and jubilee cycles of work and restTechnology as Resistance: How modern technology tries to override natural creation rhythmsJohn 15 - Fruitfulness and Abiding: The counterintuitive wisdom that even fruitful branches need pruning "If you want something to grow up into a strong, healthy plant... the first year you plant a grapevine, it's gonna bear some fruit... No. Cut it back. Wait a year... You wait at least three years before you start getting the fruit out of it." [Practical Theology] What Defines Sabbath for Each of Us? Anthony's Characteristics: Work Stoppage: Forcing clarity about what constitutes work vs. restReposing in Creation: Following God's example of stepping back and saying "this is good"Alternative Identity: Leaning into identities beyond work - mother, Prince fan, tennis player Tonetta's Characteristics: Play as Rest: Reclaiming play as non-productive but deeply engaging activityStructured Rest: Understanding that rest doesn't have to be passive or unstructuredCommunal Impact: How personal rest creates ripples enabling others to rest Key Biblical Passages Discussed Genesis 1-2: Creation rhythms and the first SabbathJohn 15: The vine and branches - fruitfulness and abidingExodus & Deuteronomy: Sabbath commands including rest for community and livestockProverbs 8: Wisdom personified as playing and frolicking before GodLevitical patterns: Sabbatical years and Jubilee cycles Recommended Resources Books & Authors Mentioned: Tricia Hersey - "Rest is Resistance" and Rest DeckCal Newport - Thoughts on focus as 21st-century currencyWendell Berry - Technology and creation rhythmsJürgen Moltmann - Liberation theology: Exodus and Sabbath as two sides of freedomCindy Wang Brandt - "Parenting Forward" on collective rest Concepts Explored: Fugitivity and rest as resistanceLate-stage capitalism vs. biblical rhythmsMultitasking as myth vs. monotasking as focusPlay as non-productive engagementTrauma-informed learning through playSabbath as community practice, not just individual discipline Discussion Questions How do your earliest experiences with work and rest continue to shape your current practices?In what ways might you need to become an "outlier" to practice meaningful rest?What's the difference between "balance" and "rhythms" in your own life?How can your personal rest create space for others in your community to rest?What would it look like to reclaim "play" as an adult spiritual practice?Where do you see technology overriding natural rhythms in your life? Quotable Moments "Rest is a human right. It is the first day of humanity's existence according to Genesis 2." "Focus is going to be the most important currency in the 21st century because... everybody is vying for our attention all the time." "There are two sides to liberation... exodus (leaving the system) and Sabbath (rest). Liberation does not exist unless both of those are in place." Connect with The LOAM Podcast Instagram: @loam.fmAnthony Parrott: @...
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    40 mins
  • 009: Death Cannot Digest Divinity (Atonement Part 2)

    009: Death Cannot Digest Divinity (Atonement Part 2)
    May 28 2025
    Episode Overview

    In this second part of their atonement series, hosts Anthony Parrott and Tonetta Landis-Aina dive deeper into healthier frameworks for understanding the cross, moving beyond problematic theologies toward more life-giving perspectives. They explore concepts like the harrowing of hell, Christus Victor, and René Girard's scapegoat theory while emphasizing how the cross reveals God's radical solidarity with the marginalized.

    Key Topics Discussed 1. The Cross as Radical Power Reversal
    • Challenges to Christian nationalism
    • Power displayed through weakness
    • The cross as counter-imperial statement
    2. The Cross as Lynching
    • Connection between crucifixion and American lynching history
    • James Cone's The Cross and the Lynching Tree
    • Understanding the cross through the lens of racial violence and solidarity with victims
    3. Language Matters: Reconciliation vs. Cleansing
    • Translation issues with "atonement" (at-one-ment)
    • Being saved from misconceptions about God's wrath, not from God's wrath itself
    4. Participation in Atonement
    • Co-suffering love (not coercive suffering)
    • Local, contextual discipleship
    • Christ suffered ahead of us, not instead of us
    5. The Harrowing of Hell
    • Jesus' descent to free the dead
    • Death as prison that cannot hold God
    • Early church imagery of chains breaking under the cross
    6. Christus Victor
    • Christ's victory over sin, death, and evil
    • Both spiritual and physical dimensions
    • The church as continuation of Christ's victory through acts of love and justice
    7. René Girard and Scapegoat Theory
    • Mimetic desire and rivalry
    • The cross as revelation (not blessing) of the scapegoat mechanism
    • Breaking cycles of accusation and violence
    Books and Resources Referenced Books Mentioned
    • The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone
    • Sacred Self-Care by Dr. Shaniqua Walker-Barnes
    • The Wood Between the Worlds by Brian Zahnd
    • The Day the Revolution Began by N.T. Wright
    • Crucifixion by Martin Hengel
    • The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky
    • The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis
    Scholars Referenced
    • René Girard (French philosopher, mimetic theory)
    • Dr. Shaniqua Walker-Barnes
    • Brian Zahnd
    • N.T. Wright
    • Martin Hengel
    • James Cone
    • Brian Blount (Black New Testament scholar)
    • Douglas Campbell
    • Scot McKnight
    • Jennifer Bashaw (on scapegoating)
    • Chris Green (theologian)
    • David Bentley Hart
    Key Scripture References
    • John 12:20-25 - Jesus on his coming death
    • Ephesians 4:8-10 - descent to lower regions
    • 1 Peter 3:18-20 - proclamation to imprisoned spirits
    • Hebrews 2 - freedom from fear of death
    • 1 John 3:8 - destroying the works of the devil
    • Colossians 2 - leading powers in parade
    Historical References
    • Alexamenos graffiti (Roman graffiti mocking Christians)
    • Samuel Dewitt Proctor Conference
    • Birmingham church bombing
    • Lynching Memorial (Equal Justice Initiative)
    Memorable Quotes
    • "The cross is foolishness and we are faithful to foolishness"
    • "Death cannot digest divinity"
    • "Christ suffered ahead of us, not instead of us"
    • "We are slowly bending the arc of history towards justice"
    • "The crucifixion of Christ was not a defeat that was overturned by resurrection. Rather, it was a victory revealed in resurrection"
    Contact Information

    Instagram: @PastorParrott and @TonettaLandis

    Podcast Instagram: @loam.fm

    Email for questions: podcast@loam.fm

    Note to Listeners

    The hosts welcome questions for a potential Q&A episode. Send your questions to podcast@loam.fm to participate in future discussions about gospel, faith, and social justice.
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    45 mins
  • 008: Understanding Atonement: Beyond Punishment and Toward Love

    008: Understanding Atonement: Beyond Punishment and Toward Love
    May 22 2025
    Understanding Atonement: Beyond Punishment and Toward Love Subtitle: "Where Crosses, Penguins, and Penal Substitution Collide" Your Hosts Anthony Parrott and Tonetta Landis-Aina welcome you to LOAM Podcast - "a conversation on a more beautiful gospel." Episode Topics & Timestamps [00:01:00] Introduction to Atonement - Why this conversation matters and setting the stage[00:02:00] Caveat \#1: Embodied Reality - Atonement isn't just theory\; it's lived experience for many[00:06:00] Caveat \#2: Dangerous Ideas - How teachings can be weaponized when misunderstood[00:08:00] Personal Formation Stories - What were you taught about the cross?[00:17:00] Penal Substitutionary Atonement Explained - Breaking down PSA and its problems[00:24:00] Atonement and Justice - Wrestling with the need for justice without retribution[00:30:00] The Power of Metaphor - How biblical writers used multiple images to describe mystery[00:32:00] Art and Contemplation - Finding meaning through music and visual art Key Insights from This Episode The Translation Problem Anthony explains how William Tyndale's translation choices created theological confusion by using "atonement" for both Greek katalasso (reconciliation) and Hebrew kippur (decontamination/purification), leading to centuries of conflated meaning. Two Important Caveats Caveat \#1: Atonement theology isn't just abstract theory - it affects real people experiencing real crucifixion in their daily lives (unemployment, discrimination, systemic oppression). Caveat \#2: These ideas can be dangerous when mishandled, like "trying to pick up a snake in the wild" - they can mean the exact opposite of their intended message. The Problem with Penal Substitutionary Atonement Makes punishment and retribution ultimate rather than lovePuts violence at the heart of God's characterReduces the rich biblical metaphors to one narrow theoryCan perpetuate cycles of violence and revenge "If God will not forgive us until his son has been tortured to death for us, then God is a lot less forgiving than we are sometimes." - Herbert McCabe Toward a Better Understanding The hosts emphasize that biblical writers used multiple metaphors (sacrificial, legal, interpersonal, commercial, military) because they were trying to describe a mystery that transcends any single explanation. Resources & References Mentioned Books & Authors Strange New World Podcast by Matthew Myers BoltonHerbert McCabe - Catholic theologian quoted on forgivenessSally McFague - Theologian on metaphor and religious languageRobert Mulholland - Spiritual formation framework using Jungian archetypesJon Sobrino - Liberation theologian who wrote about "crucified peoples" Music & Art "Lamb of God" - Choral cantata by Rob Gardner (Mormon composer)"No Greater Love" - Gospel song ("They hung him high, stretched him wide")"Worth" - Contemporary Christian song"How Great the Father's Love for Us" - Hymn mentionedStations of the Cross - Catholic contemplative practiceFranciscan Monastery, Washington DC - Mentioned as a place for stations of the cross Biblical & Theological Terms Katalasso (Greek) - ReconciliationKippur (Hebrew) - Purification/decontamination (as in Yom Kippur)Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) - The dominant Protestant theory of atonementWilliam Tyndale - English Bible translator who coined "atonement" Recommended Further Reading Explore liberation theology and Jon Sobrino's work on "crucified peoples"Study the various biblical metaphors for atonement (not just substitution)Research Herbert McCabe's writings on forgiveness and God's characterLook into contemplative practices like Stations of the Cross Connect with LOAM Podcast Instagram: @loam.fmTonetta's Instagram: @tonetta.landisAnthony Online: Find him at @pastorparrott on most platformsFeedback & Questions: podcast@loam.fm Submit your questions and feedback - they'll respond in future episodes! What's Next? This is Part 1 of a multi-part series on atonement. The hosts promise to move beyond critique toward constructive alternatives - exploring how we can understand the cross as good news without the problematic baggage of punishment-focused theology. "We are not just gonna tear it down and leave people in that... I think we can do better." - Tonetta Discussion Questions What were you taught about the cross growing up? How has that shaped your understanding of God?How might the difference between "reconciliation" and "purification" change how we read atonement passages?Where do you see "crucified peoples" in today's world?How can we hold onto the love revealed in the cross while rejecting harmful theology?What art, music, or practices help you contemplate the mystery of the cross? LOAM Podcast: A conversation on a more beautiful gospel.
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    35 mins
  • 007: Exploring Confession and the Spiritual Practice of Lent

    007: Exploring Confession and the Spiritual Practice of Lent
    Apr 16 2025
    "I'm a Bear, I'm Meant to Be Hibernating" Subtitle: Episode Overview

    In this episode, Anthony Parrott and Tonetta Landis-Aina discuss the spiritual practices of Lent, with a particular focus on the often overlooked practice of confession. They explore their personal histories with liturgical traditions, why Lent remains meaningful to them today, and how confession serves as an important spiritual practice for both personal growth and collective liberation.

    Key Points
    • Personal histories with Lent: Anthony and Tonetta share their journeys from non-liturgical upbringings to embracing Lenten practices
    • The importance of alternative liturgies: How the liturgical calendar offers a counter-cultural way of measuring time apart from the dominant calendar of empire
    • Lent as wilderness: Understanding the desert experiences of faith as normal and necessary spiritual cycles
    • The value of darkness: How Lent reclaims darkness as a space where God moves and works
    • Confession as practice: The tension between unhealthy guilt and the necessary practice of taking responsibility
    • Collective confession: The importance of public confession paired with assurance for communal healing
    • The dangers of avoiding confession: How avoiding self-reflection can lead to calcified hearts and unjust systems
    Notable Quotes
    • "We are formed by calendars in time, whether we like it or not." - Anthony
    • "The question is not if we are being spiritually formed, it's what is forming us." - Anthony
    • "Wilderness is a really healthy part of the life of faith." - Tonetta
    • "If you do not create... alternative routines and practices, you will be formed by the values of the empire." - Tonetta
    • "Confession as willingness to take responsibility to name what is wrong... is really important for the health of the soul." - Tonetta
    • "If you cannot be vulnerable in confession... it endangers your heart." - Tonetta
    • "Confession should drive us towards renewal and recreation and collective liberation." - Anthony
    What They're Watching
    • Tonetta: "Loot" with Maya Rudolph on Apple TV+
    • Anthony: "Severance" on Apple TV+
    Resources Mentioned
    • Barbara Brown Taylor's book "Learning to Walk in the Dark"
    • The liturgical year wheel
    • The Ignatian Examen practice
    • Willie James Jennings' "The Christian Imagination"
    Connect With Us
    • Instagram: @loam.fm
    • Tonetta Landis on Instagram: @TonettaLandis
    • Anthony Parrott online: @PastorParrott
    • Submit feedback and questions: podcast@loam.fm
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    39 mins
  • 006: Power With, Not Power Over: The Co-Pastoring Journey

    006: Power With, Not Power Over: The Co-Pastoring Journey
    Mar 27 2025

    Subtitle: I Set Up a Mic This Morning, the Lord Be Praised

    Episode Overview

    In this episode, Anthony Parrott and Tonetta Landis discuss the concept of co-pastoring - sharing pastoral leadership equally rather than following traditional hierarchical church leadership models. They explore what drew them to this model, what makes their partnership work, practical aspects of implementing co-pastoring, and whether this approach is suitable for all church contexts.

    Key Points
    • Origins of their co-pastoring relationship: How Anthony and Tonetta came to work together and why they chose equal partnership rather than a lead/associate model
    • Biblical foundations: Examining how leadership in scripture often involves partnerships rather than solo leaders (Moses/Aaron/Miriam, David/Nathan, Elijah/Elisha)
    • Making co-pastoring work: The importance of trust, complementary skills, shared values, and mutual respect
    • Practical implementation: Division of responsibilities, keeping "short accounts," and ensuring the congregation understands the co-pastor relationship
    • Challenging traditional power structures: Discussion of how co-pastoring can be a theological response to hierarchical leadership models
    • Benefits and challenges: How sharing leadership addresses burnout while acknowledging the costs and complexities
    Notable Quotes
    • "I don't want to be a king. I don't feel like that's the Christian way." - Tonetta
    • "I'm not trying to flip the system so that now my boot is on your neck." - Tonetta
    • "There's no such thing as a self-sent, self-anointed, self-appointed leader." - Anthony
    • "Accountability should come out of a relationship of grace and trust. And so often accountability starts with suspicion." - Anthony
    • "The kings of the Gentiles lorded over them, and those in authority are called benefactors, but Jesus says, 'but not so with you.'"
    • "Keeping short accounts" - Tonetta on addressing issues promptly
    • "Both people have to have a particular sensitivity to the intersections that the other person brings and have done some work around that." - Tonetta
    Resources Mentioned
    • Working Genius assessment tool
    • C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves
    • Luke 22 (Jesus' teaching on servant leadership)
    Connect With Us
    • Instagram: @loam.fm
    • Tonetta Landis on Instagram: @TonettaLandis
    • Anthony Parrott online: @PastorParrott
    • Submit feedback and questions: podcast@loam.fm
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    38 mins
  • 005: John 2 and The God Who Riots

    005: John 2 and The God Who Riots
    Mar 12 2025

    Subtitle: I Memorized Chapters and Became a Jackass

    Tonetta and Anthony discuss John 2, where Jesus goes full home-renovation-show on the temple tables. Anthony confesses he memorized scripture as a child only to become "a jackass" while Tonetta laments that revival might require actual disruption, not just a worship concert that went on too long. The pastors conclude with life updates: Tonetta forced her family to read books while Anthony discovered the revolutionary concept of "base layers" for winter running, which Tonetta firmly believes is "of the devil."

    Show Notes:

    • Anthony and Tonetta discuss the story of Jesus flipping tables in the temple from John 2
    • The timing differences of this story in John versus the other gospels
    • Six characters in the story: the merchants, disciples, doubters, believers, animals, and Jesus
    • Discussion of corrupt systems we participate in without questioning
    • Exploration of God's activity in the world through movements for justice
    • Reflections on legitimate anger versus hatred
    • The importance of disruption in revival and revelation
    • Animals' role in the sacrificial system and implications for today
    • Considerations about what gives us authority to act
    • Tonetta shares about attending Q Christian Fellowship conference
    • Anthony talks about discovering base layers for winter running

    Links to Gather:

    • "The God Who Riots" by Damon Garcia
    • "Jesus Takes a Side" by Johnny Rashid
    • Works by James Cone (referenced regarding God's wrath)
    • "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain
    • Q Christian Fellowship

    Send your questions, feedback, and topic ideas to podcast@loam.fm

    Follow the LOAM Podcast on Instagram. Anthony is @PastorParrott on all the socials. Follow Tonetta on Instagram @TonettaLandis
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    38 mins
  • 004: Not A Farming Podcast (What Is LOAM)

    004: Not A Farming Podcast (What Is LOAM)
    Jan 29 2025

    Subtitle: I Might Go Back to My Lesbian Romance Soon

    Anthony and Tonetta introduce themselves. They explain why they named their podcast "Loam" after a type of nutrient-rich soil. The pastors discuss how soil serves as a metaphor for creating healthy spiritual environments.

    Send your questions, feedback, and topic ideas to podcast@loam.fm

    Follow the LOAM Podcast on Instagram. Anthony is @PastorParrott on all the socials. Follow Tonetta on Instagram @TonettaLandia

    Topics covered:

    • Personal introductions and backgrounds
    • Definition and properties of loam soil
    • Critique of mechanized/industrialized approaches to ministry
    • Non-coercion as a core value
    • Vulnerability in spiritual practice
    • Re-enchantment and mysticism
    • Importance of deep community
    • Current reading lists
    • Experiences with theological education
    • Integration of farming metaphors in ministry
    • Effects of Christian nationalism and systemic issues
    • Role of heart-centered vs. intellectual faith
    • Approaches to spiritual formation Personal experiences with church trauma
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    38 mins