In this episode, Gwen and Whitney speak with lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, about how lawyers can create a law practice that truly supports their life. Steve shares practical strategies for qualifying clients, saying “no” with confidence, and focusing on meaningful, profitable work. He also highlights the importance of community, mindset, and becoming a student of both the practice and business of law.

00:00 – Breaking up with the billable hour and redefining law firm success. 02:10 – Why charging can reduce client no-shows. 05:00 – How to choose the right clients and say “no” gracefully. 07:45 – Recognizing when to let go and protect your time. 10:00 – The role of peer groups in navigating uncertainty. 13:30 – Becoming a student of marketing and leadership. 16:00 – Why helping others defines long-term success. 19:00 – How he’s using content to teach lawyers modern growth strategies.

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break free from the billable hour and build a profitable, fulfilling, and client-loving practice. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, each episode explores stories and strategies that help legal professionals thrive on their own terms.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin shares how lawyers can stop chasing clients and start building authentic, profitable relationships through his “Sales-Free Selling” approach. He explains how to create a predictable business development process, find your niche, and gain control of your legal career—all without feeling like a salesperson.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between wanting more business and hating the idea of “selling,” this conversation will show you how to shift your mindset, refine your focus, and build a law practice that works for you.

02:30 – What makes a lawyer successful in business development 04:50 – The power of niching down and focusing on one area 07:45 – How specialization builds authority and better results 10:30 – What “Sales-Free Selling” really means and how it works 13:40 – Why most lawyers struggle with pitching and selling 15:10 – The importance of diagnosing before prescribing 17:30 – How to earn trust and control in every client meeting

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break up with the billable hour and build a profitable, joyful, and client-loving practice that truly supports their life.

Each episode features real conversations between Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, ADVOS Pro co-founders, and legal experts, entrepreneurs, and attorneys who’ve redesigned their law careers with freedom, purpose, and profit in mind.

Discover tools, systems, and stories to help you stop surviving and start thriving—on your own terms.

Gwen and Whitney sit down with business development coach Steve Fretzin to explore how lawyers can grow their practices without “selling.” Steve shares how he helps attorneys build systems for client growth, overcome ego barriers, and turn consistency into success. He also shares stories of lawyers who doubled their books of business through simple, repeatable strategies.

Key Timestamps:

00:00 – Gwen welcomes Steve Fretzin and introduces his background in legal business development. 02:00 – Steve explains how he began working with lawyers after the 2008 recession and discovered their lack of business training. 04:30 – How lawyers differ from traditional salespeople and why they adapt well to structured systems. 06:00 – Why lawyers’ love for learning makes them ideal coaching clients. 08:30 – How Steve builds trust and helps lawyers open up in a safe learning environment. 10:30 – Why practicing communication skills repeatedly leads to long-term success. 13:00 – How one employment attorney built a multimillion-dollar book of business through structured business development. 16:00 – The power of saying “no” faster and focusing only on ideal clients.

About the Show: Off the Clock is a podcast for lawyers and law firm owners who want to build profitable, joyful practices that work for their lives—not the other way around. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, each episode shares practical insights to help attorneys step off the billable hour treadmill and into a business that truly supports their goals.