In this episode, Gwen and Whitney speak with lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, about how lawyers can create a law practice that truly supports their life. Steve shares practical strategies for qualifying clients, saying “no” with confidence, and focusing on meaningful, profitable work. He also highlights the importance of community, mindset, and becoming a student of both the practice and business of law.

00:00 – Breaking up with the billable hour and redefining law firm success. 02:10 – Why charging can reduce client no-shows. 05:00 – How to choose the right clients and say “no” gracefully. 07:45 – Recognizing when to let go and protect your time. 10:00 – The role of peer groups in navigating uncertainty. 13:30 – Becoming a student of marketing and leadership. 16:00 – Why helping others defines long-term success. 19:00 – How he’s using content to teach lawyers modern growth strategies.

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break free from the billable hour and build a profitable, fulfilling, and client-loving practice. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, each episode explores stories and strategies that help legal professionals thrive on their own terms.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin shares how lawyers can stop chasing clients and start building authentic, profitable relationships through his “Sales-Free Selling” approach. He explains how to create a predictable business development process, find your niche, and gain control of your legal career—all without feeling like a salesperson.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between wanting more business and hating the idea of “selling,” this conversation will show you how to shift your mindset, refine your focus, and build a law practice that works for you.

02:30 – What makes a lawyer successful in business development 04:50 – The power of niching down and focusing on one area 07:45 – How specialization builds authority and better results 10:30 – What “Sales-Free Selling” really means and how it works 13:40 – Why most lawyers struggle with pitching and selling 15:10 – The importance of diagnosing before prescribing 17:30 – How to earn trust and control in every client meeting

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break up with the billable hour and build a profitable, joyful, and client-loving practice that truly supports their life.

Each episode features real conversations between Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, ADVOS Pro co-founders, and legal experts, entrepreneurs, and attorneys who’ve redesigned their law careers with freedom, purpose, and profit in mind.

Discover tools, systems, and stories to help you stop surviving and start thriving—on your own terms.

Gwen and Whitney sit down with business development coach Steve Fretzin to explore how lawyers can grow their practices without “selling.” Steve shares how he helps attorneys build systems for client growth, overcome ego barriers, and turn consistency into success. He also shares stories of lawyers who doubled their books of business through simple, repeatable strategies.

Key Timestamps:

00:00 – Gwen welcomes Steve Fretzin and introduces his background in legal business development. 02:00 – Steve explains how he began working with lawyers after the 2008 recession and discovered their lack of business training. 04:30 – How lawyers differ from traditional salespeople and why they adapt well to structured systems. 06:00 – Why lawyers’ love for learning makes them ideal coaching clients. 08:30 – How Steve builds trust and helps lawyers open up in a safe learning environment. 10:30 – Why practicing communication skills repeatedly leads to long-term success. 13:00 – How one employment attorney built a multimillion-dollar book of business through structured business development. 16:00 – The power of saying “no” faster and focusing only on ideal clients.

About the Show: Off the Clock is a podcast for lawyers and law firm owners who want to build profitable, joyful practices that work for their lives—not the other way around. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, each episode shares practical insights to help attorneys step off the billable hour treadmill and into a business that truly supports their goals.

Episode Summary: In this episode, Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper dive into the concept of deliverables-based pricing and why moving away from the billable hour can transform a law practice. They share their journey of trial and error with flat fees and how they developed a dynamic, client-focused pricing model that prioritizes value over time spent.

What You Will Learn in This Episode:

• The pitfalls of flat fee and hourly billing models.
• How deliverables-based pricing gives clients clarity and control.
• Strategies to break down projects into components and assign value effectively.
• How this pricing model fosters trust, client loyalty, and long-term relationships.
• Practical first steps law firm owners can take to implement deliverables-based pricing.

Key Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction: The problem with billable hours 02:30 – What deliverables-based pricing is (and isn’t) 05:00 – Challenges with flat fee pricing 08:50 – How clients perceive value vs. hours billed 12:00 – Breaking projects into components and “points” 15:20 – Building trust through client-focused conversations 20:00 – Practical tip: Trying deliverables-based pricing in one project 22:45 – Closing thoughts: Creating a practice that loves you back

About the Show:

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break free from the billable hour and design a profitable, joyful, client-loving practice that loves you back. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, co-founders of ADVOS Pro, each episode delivers strategies, stories, and bold steps to help you stop surviving and start thriving—on your own terms.

Episode Summary: In this episode, Gwen Griggs dives into the challenges and opportunities lawyers face when deciding whether to operate as generalists or specialize in a niche. Gwen explores how focusing on ideal clients, niching down, and building domain expertise can increase profitability, improve client experience, and create a more sustainable, enjoyable law practice.

What You Will Learn in This Episode:

• The concept of the “threshold lawyer” and why taking every case may limit growth.
• How niching down and focusing on your ideal client can attract the right work.
• The lighthouse analogy: why clarity in your practice draws ideal clients.
• The importance of specialization for profitability, efficiency, and client satisfaction.
• Practical steps lawyers can take this quarter to identify their best-fit clients and focus their practice.
• Real-life examples of the impact of working outside your expertise and how to partner with the right professionals.

Key Timestamps:

00:00 – 05:00: Introduction to threshold lawyers and the evolution from generalist to niche expert. 05:00 – 10:00: Identifying ideal clients and the importance of client-focused marketing. 10:00 – 15:00: Specialization for profitability and efficiency; creating systems that work for your niche. 15:00 – 20:00: Real-world example of mismatched expertise impacting a business transaction. 20:00 – 23:55: Actionable steps to start moving toward being the go-to expert in your practice.

About the Show:

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break free from the billable hour and design a profitable, joyful, client-loving practice that loves you back. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, co-founders of ADVOS Pro, each episode delivers strategies, stories, and bold steps to help you stop surviving and start thriving—on your own terms.

Episode Summary: In this powerful episode, Gwen Griggs shares the importance of viewing your law firm not just as a practice, but as a thriving business designed to generate profit, purpose, and long-term sustainability. She discusses how lawyers—whether solo practitioners, firm partners, or in-house counsel—can adopt business principles to create more efficient, profitable, and fulfilling practices. Gwen emphasizes that profitability and professionalism can coexist, and she offers actionable strategies such as using “Profit First,” designing systems that support intentional growth, and carving out CEO time to focus on big-picture business design.

Key Timestamps: 00:01 – Show Introduction 00:48 – Understanding That Every Law Practice Is a Business 02:11 – Shifting the Mindset from Profession to Enterprise 04:32 – Why Profitability Is Not a Dirty Word in Law 06:10 – “Profit First” and Financial Clarity for Law Firms 08:23 – Revenue vs. Profit: Building Sustainable Growth 10:05 – Designing a Law Firm That Delivers Better Results for Clients and Teams 12:40 – Avoiding Shiny Object Syndrome and Practicing Strategic Focus 15:18 – Using Metrics and Scorecards to Evaluate Your Firm Holistically 17:22 – The Power of Accountability and Thought Partnership 20:05 – Carving Out CEO Time for Strategic Thinking 22:40 – Building a Practice That Supports Your Life and Long-Term Goals

About the Show: Off the Clock helps lawyers and law firm owners create profitable, purposeful, and joyful practices. Hosted by Gwen Griggs, the show explores how to break away from the traditional billable-hour mindset and design a business that supports both your professional goals and personal fulfillment.

Episode Summary: In this episode of Off the Clock, co-hosts Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper tackle one of their favorite topics: law firm metrics. They explain why traditional measures like billable hours, realization rates, and origination credit often create misalignment, wasted time, and even toxic firm cultures. Drawing on their experiences in both business and law, Gwen and Whitney reveal why firms should shift focus to meaningful KPIs that reflect values, client satisfaction, and long-term success. From the power of Net Promoter Scores (NPS) to measuring community impact, team health, and client experience, they highlight how law firms can evolve beyond outdated tracking systems. Listeners will come away with practical tools to identify what truly matters in their practice, plus simple steps to begin measuring success in ways that align with core values and client outcomes.

00:01 – Introduction to Off the Clock with Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper 03:10 – Why traditional law firm metrics like billable hours fall short 08:25 – The problem with origination credit and firm culture 14:15 – Borrowing from business: KPIs that actually measure success 19:30 – Aligning law firm metrics with values and client outcomes 25:45 – The importance of Net Promoter Scores (NPS) in law firms 32:20 – Lessons learned from client feedback, even negative scores 38:05 – Using metrics to identify ideal vs. non-ideal clients 43:15 – Building accountability and culture through visible metrics 48:50 – First steps for lawyers to begin measuring what matters 54:10 – Closing thoughts and invitation to connect with ADVOS Pro

Off the Clock is a podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to break free from the billable hour and design profitable, joyful practices that support their lives. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, co-founders of ADVOS Pro, the show shares stories, strategies, and bold steps to help attorneys stop surviving and start thriving on their own terms.

Episode Summary: In this premiere episode of Off the Clock, co-founders of ADVOS Pro, Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, share why they broke up with the billable hour and how lawyers can do the same. Together, they reflect on their early experiences in big law, the frustrations of tracking hours instead of results, and the turning points that led them to create a new model of practicing law. By drawing on lessons from software development and project-based pricing, they explain how lawyers can build profitable, joyful practices that prioritize client outcomes, efficiency, and work-life balance. This episode sets the stage for a fresh conversation about designing law practices that support freedom, fulfillment, and financial success.

00:01 – Introduction to Off the Clock podcast and mission 02:10 – Whitney Harper’s first impressions of the billable hour 06:25 – Gwen Griggs’s breaking point with hourly billing 11:40 – Transition from big law to in-house counsel and client-side perspective 16:05 – Why the billable hour creates misalignment with client needs 20:30 – Rethinking legal fees: from flat fee to project deliverables 25:50 – Borrowing lessons from software development for law firm pricing 30:15 – How breaking free from hourly billing transformed client relationships 34:40 – Personal impact: regaining family time, freedom, and joy in practice 39:20 – Practical first steps for lawyers ready to leave the billable hour 42:00 – Introduction to the Promance Scorecard and resources from ADVOS Pro 44:15 – Closing thoughts and call to action

Off the Clock is the podcast for lawyers and law firm owners ready to stop surviving and start thriving. Hosted by Gwen Griggs and Whitney Harper, co-creators of ADVOS Pro, each episode explores strategies for building practices that are profitable, client-focused, and designed around the lawyer’s life—not just their clients’ needs. Listeners will discover bold steps to create freedom, fulfillment, and long-term success without relying on the outdated billable hour model.