What if the outcome went badly—but you still made the right decision?

Leadership rarely gives us complete information or guaranteed results. We make the best call we can, something unexpected happens, and hindsight makes it tempting to judge the decision entirely by how things turned out.

In this episode, Chris talks with keynote speaker, author, former actuary, and champion poker player Steve Fredlund about making better decisions in an uncertain world.

Steve shares lessons from his “Safari Way” framework, including why leaders need to get clear on the experience they’re trying to create, surround themselves with the right “peeps in the Jeep,” and sometimes have the courage to do the “unright” thing—the choice outside the normal, expected path.

The conversation digs especially deep into the difference between a good decision and a good outcome. A leader can make a sound decision and still lose because of circumstances outside their control. Conversely, a poor decision can occasionally produce a great result. If leaders fail to recognize that distinction, they can unintentionally create teams that become afraid to take risks or make decisions.

• Why good decisions can still produce bad outcomes
• How hindsight can distort the way we evaluate ourselves and our teams
• Why leaders should evaluate the decision-making process—not just the result
• How outcome-focused leadership can create risk-averse employees
• Why incomplete information is an unavoidable part of leadership
• How to recognize when gathering more information has become a way to avoid making a decision
• Why a close decision sometimes simply needs to be made
• The value of surrounding yourself with people who challenge your thinking and still support the final decision
• Why hiring for alignment, purpose, and values can matter more than simply hiring the strongest résumé
• How better interview questions reveal more than standard yes-or-no questions
• Why we have more agency than we often realize over the people, choices, and direction of our lives
• Steve’s challenge to leaders: stop trying to control every outcome and embrace the adventure

Steve Fredlund is an award-winning keynote speaker, bestselling author of Do the Unright Thing: Memoir of a People Pleaser, former actuary, nonprofit founder, entrepreneur, and leader of African safaris.

Learn more about Steve and his speaking at SteveFredlund.com and explore his broader work at TheSafariWay.com.

Join the Next Level Leadership Community and find more leadership resources at ParksandRestoration.com.

Better leaders. Better parks.

Parks and Restoration is a podcast and leadership development platform for current and aspiring leaders in parks, conservation, natural resources, and outdoor recreation. Through conversations with leaders from inside and outside the profession, we explore practical lessons about leadership, organizational culture, growth, resilience, and the people behind great parks and healthy lands.

Learn more at ParksandRestoration.com.

What if one of the best ways to prevent burnout is not reducing the work—but changing how people experience it together?

Nonprofit leaders and volunteers often enter the work because they want to make a difference. But when every solved problem is replaced by another, even deeply committed people can lose sight of the progress they are making.

Jordan DeGree, executive director of the Iowa Nonprofit Alliance, joins Chris for a wide-ranging conversation about nonprofit leadership, volunteer engagement, organizational culture, creativity, and the surprisingly significant impact of better meetings.

Jordan explains why nonprofit organizations must periodically look beyond the problems immediately in front of them and reconnect people with the change they are working to create. He and Chris explore how small practices—expressing gratitude, sharing personal and professional highlights, creating space for quiet reflection, and intentionally strengthening relationships—can produce meaningful cultural change.

The conversation also examines how leaders can structure meetings so that ideas, rather than titles or personalities, become the focus. Jordan shares practical methods for reducing hierarchy, hearing from quieter participants, framing problems more effectively, and helping groups produce ideas they can actually implement.

Along the way, Jordan describes his unconventional path as an entrepreneur, artist, nonprofit leader, real estate investor, and founder of several ventures designed to help people bring ideas to life.

• Why nonprofit work can create burnout even among deeply committed people
• How reconnecting people to purpose can counter a constant problem-solving mindset
• Why maintaining the status quo can sometimes represent a meaningful victory
• How relationships and a sense of community help sustain volunteers
• Why small cultural practices can generate an outsized return
• How to structure meetings so quieter participants have an equal opportunity to contribute
• Why leaders should separate individual thinking from group discussion
• How better questions produce better ideas and more practical solutions
• Why respect and relationships are prerequisites for understanding another person’s perspective
• How Jordan built a career around creativity, experimentation, and helping others see beyond their perceived limit

Learn more about Jordan and all his ventures at jordandegree.com

It's time to wage war on crappy meetings! Download your free Field Guide to Better Meetings when you join the Next Level Leadership Community.

Learn more and sign up at ParksAndRestoration.com.

Better leaders. Better parks.

Parks and Restoration is a podcast and leadership development platform exploring leadership through the lens of ecology—for the land, via the people who serve it. Each episode is built for current and aspiring leaders in parks, conservation, and natural resources who want practical lessons on culture, growth, impact, and organizational resilience.

Learn more at ParksAndRestoration.com.

How do we protect the places we love without forgetting the people who make that protection possible?

Most people enter parks and conservation because they care deeply about the land. But as Rachel Franchina explains in this episode, the longer you stay in this profession, the more you realize that conservation is ultimately about people. Great leaders don't just manage resources—they build relationships, develop others, and create communities that care enough to protect those resources for generations to come.

Rachel spent more than 20 years with the U.S. Forest Service before becoming Executive Director of the Society of Outdoor Recreation Professionals (SORP). We discuss the importance of developing people alongside the places they steward, the future of outdoor recreation leadership, and how SORP is helping build a stronger profession through initiatives like its new Outdoor Recreation Professional Competency Framework.

Learn more about SORP at https://recpro.org.

Key Takeaways

• Conservation succeeds or fails because of people—not just science.
• Why building relationships is the most important leadership skill in parks and conservation.
• Finding the balance between protecting natural resources and providing meaningful visitor experiences.
• How SORP is creating a stronger community for outdoor recreation professionals across North America.
• The value of mentorship, professional networks, and investing in the next generation of leaders.
• How the new Outdoor Recreation Professional Competency Framework can guide career development and organizational growth.
• Why agencies need to intentionally recruit, develop, and retain future conservation leaders.
• Practical leadership lessons for anyone responsible for caring for both people and place.

Join the Next Level Leadership Community

If you're ready to grow as a leader while making a greater impact on your organization, your community, and the places you care about, we'd love to have you join the Next Level Leadership Community.

You’ll get practical leadership insights, invites to meaningful conversations, and a growing network of professionals committed to building stronger organizations through better leadership.

Learn more and join us at https://www.parksandrestoration.com.

About Parks & Restoration

Better leaders. Better parks.

Parks and Restoration is a podcast and leadership development platform exploring leadership through the lens of ecology — for the land, via the people who serve it. Each episode is built for current and aspiring leaders in parks, conservation, and natural resources who want practical lessons on culture, growth, impact, and what it really takes to lead well.

Find out more and join the movement at https://www.parksandrestoration.com