After 23 years inside IPG, R/GA is independent again. And Global Chief Creative Officer Tiffany Rolfe is helping write the next chapter for one of advertising’s most iconic agencies.

Tiffany joins Kerrie Finch and Gully Flowers on Second Wind to reveal the extraordinary story behind R/GA’s independence, from receiving just an hour’s warning about a Wall Street Journal story announcing the potential sale, to navigating a management buyout and becoming an owner of the business herself.

But this isn’t just a story about R/GA. It’s about an advertising industry being forced to reconsider what creativity is worth, how agencies make money, and what happens when AI changes the economics of making things.

We get into the limitations of the holding company model, why agencies have undervalued their ideas by selling hours and deliverables, and Tiffany’s belief that creative ideas should be as valuable as products.

We also explore why AI might make human taste and judgment more important, the shift from producing campaigns to building creative systems, and why Tiffany believes having a creative department can sometimes kill creativity.

Along the way, we revisit her days at Crispin Porter + Bogusky, the magic of Burger King’s Subservient Chicken, and the lessons she learned growing up with teenage parents.

Plus, why AI will never understand what it’s like to have a 13-year-old daughter.

Second Wind is hosted by Kerrie Finch, Jake Neske, and Gully Flowers, co-founders of Also Known As (AKA). Candid conversations with the people shaping creativity, culture and business.

New episodes every other Tuesday. Watch on YouTube or listen on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

How do you build brand inside a company where thousands of people, products and decisions can pull it in different directions?

Darryl Mascarenhas leads brand creative for Amazon Devices & Services. His answer starts with a deceptively simple idea: brands are myths. You build the story, create the systems that allow it to scale, and make sure nobody breaks it along the way.

This is a masterclass in what brand building actually looks like inside a massive organization.

Darryl talks about why craft is only half the job, why relationships matter just as much, and why the best creatives aren’t simply the people with the best ideas. They’re the people who can get those ideas through feedback, reviews and stakeholders and somehow make the work better in the process.

We get into:

How Amazon hires creative talent, and why great craft without the ability to communicate its value isn’t enough.

Why some brilliant creatives thrive in agencies but struggle inside large companies.

What Amazon actually needs from external agencies, studios and production partners, and why an incredible portfolio is only the beginning.

Why celebrity can work as a storytelling shortcut.

Why brand mythology matters more as organizations become larger and more complex.

How to balance investment in media with investment in the creative itself.

How side conversations, relationships and trust can be more effective than formal persuasion when you’re trying to move an idea through a company.

Why AI may make taste, perspective and traditional creative principles more valuable rather than less.

And why the final test for every new tool, campaign, partner and piece of content might be remarkably simple:

Don’t break the myth.

Second Wind is a podcast about the people, ideas and decisions reshaping the creative industries.

By almost every measure advertising has for keeping score, Aaron Starkman and Rethink are on top of the world.

As Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink, Aaron has helped build one of the most acclaimed independent agencies in advertising, behind famous work for Heinz, IKEA, Coors and more.

Rethink has been named Independent Agency of the Year at nearly every major international award show, including Cannes Lions, The One Show, The Clios, London International Awards and The ANDYs.

In 2024, Rethink was named Cannes Lions Independent Agency and Network of the Year, and holds the #1 spot on WARC’s Global Independent Agency ranking and The Drum World Creative Rankings.

So about 45 minutes into this conversation, Kerrie asks Aaron a fascinating question:

Has all that success finally satisfied his need for validation?

His answer goes all the way back to the beginning of his career.

“I was fired three times as a junior and it f*cked with me.”

Aaron talks candidly about getting fired early in his career, the anxiety it created, and how the fear of it happening again became fuel. He opens up about therapy, medication, losing his mother, and the extraordinary dream after she died that finally pushed him to deal with what was taking up so much space in his head.

But this is also a fascinating look inside how Rethink consistently makes great creative work.

Aaron breaks down CRAFTS and Go Then Grow, why constraints make creativity better, how Rethink beta-tests creative ideas in the real world, why they don’t use the word “client,” and the Relationship Accelerator they use to build trust between agencies and brands.

We also get into AI and the future of advertising.

While much of the industry is focused on using AI to make advertising faster and cheaper, Rethink is going the other way: doubling down on human creativity and working toward having 50% of the company made up of creatives.

Aaron’s take:

“Average feels like AI.”

A remarkably candid conversation about creativity, ambition, anxiety, advertising, AI, leadership, client relationships, mental health — and what happens when achieving everything you thought you wanted doesn’t necessarily make the noise disappear.

Aaron Starkman is Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink.

Second Wind is hosted by Kerrie Finch, Jake Neske, and Gully Flowers, and made by AKA.