Episodes

  • How Indie Artists Are Gaming Spotify Without Getting Banned with Dorian Perron

    How Indie Artists Are Gaming Spotify Without Getting Banned with Dorian Perron
    May 20 2026
    In this episode, Max Bernstein sits down with Dorian Perron, Co-founder of Groover, to break down how artists actually grow on Spotify today through playlists, algorithms, and data-driven strategies.Dorian explains why playlisting has become the dominant form of music promotion, replacing traditional outlets like blogs and radio, and how artists can use it to generate real audience growth. He also talks about the risks of artificial streaming, how to identify fraudulent playlists, and why engagement matters far more than follower count.The conversation also explores how Spotify’s algorithm works behind the scenes, including the importance of early traction, popularity scores, and listener behavior. Dorian shares actionable strategies for artists to maximize campaigns, build momentum across platforms, and avoid common mistakes that can hurt long-term growth.Key TakeawaysWhy playlisting has become the most important driver of music discoveryHow to spot fake playlists and avoid artificial streaming penaltiesWhy engagement matters more than playlist follower countHow Spotify’s algorithm rewards early traction and listener consistencyThe growing role of AI in music creation and its impact on the industryKey Timestamps00:00 - Introduction to the changing landscape of playlisting04:42 - Identifying fraudulent playlists and avoiding artificial streams09:12 - How to create successful independent playlists14:01 - Using social media and ads to build playlist engagement19:58 - Why territories like Brazil and Mexico are critical for growth23:08 - How Spotify’s algorithm works and the importance of early traction28:00 - What genres have the biggest indie playlists?28:54 - The role of digital ads in Groover’s growth strategy30:00 - What people think about AI generated music37:29 - Where to follow Dorian and Groover for more tips and updatesFollow Our Guest, Dorian PerronDorian Perron LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorian-perron-44102177Groover LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/heygroover/ Indeflagration LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/indeflagration/ Dorian Perron Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dorianflagrant/ Groover Music Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/groover.music/ Groover Obsessions Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/grooverobsessions/ Groover Website: https://groover.co/en/ Indeflagration Website: https://indeflagration.fr/ Follow the Host, Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationl LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    38 mins
  • Is Rock Music Back with Ashlyn Bruni

    Is Rock Music Back with Ashlyn Bruni
    Apr 29 2026
    In this episode, Max Bernstein sits down with Ashlyn Bruni, A&R Coordinator at Hopeless Records, to break down the resurgence of rock music and what it takes for artists to succeed in today’s landscape.Ashlyn shares how modern A&R has evolved beyond chasing streams and viral moments, focusing instead on genuine fan connection, community-building, and long-term artist development. She also unpacks how independent labels operate, the shift toward distribution and licensing deals, and the trade-offs artists face when choosing between indie and major routes.The conversation also explores the role of TikTok in discovery, the risks of trend-chasing, and the growing impact of AI on music creation, offering a clear look at where the industry is heading and what artists need to stand out.Key TakeawaysWhy rock music is making a strong comeback and what’s driving the revivalWhat A&R actually looks for beyond streams, followers, and viral momentsWhy fan connection and community matter more than audience sizeThe shift from traditional record deals to distribution and licensing modelsHow AI and TikTok are both helping and hurting artist discoveryKey Timestamps00:00 - Introduction to Ashlyn Bruni and her role at Hopeless Records01:15 - The resurgence of rock music: What’s driving the comeback?03:30 - How A&R evaluates artists in 202606:00 - Why indie labels are becoming a better option for many artists08:15 - The shift from traditional record deals to distribution and licensing models11:00 - The role of TikTok in artist discovery and trends13:20 - The risks of chasing viral moments and social media success15:00 - Women in the music industry and overcoming gender bias17:40 - The importance of representation for emerging artists20:00 - Ashlyn’s thoughts on the future of rock and new talent22:30 - Artists to watch right now in the rock scene24:00 - Where to connect with Ashlyn and final thoughtsFollow Our Guest, Ashlyn BruniAshlyn Bruni Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashlyn.bruni/Ashlyn Bruni LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashlyn-bruni-37535269/Hopeless Records Website: https://www.hopelessrecords.com/Hopeless Records LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hopelesssub-city-records/Follow the Host, Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    24 mins
  • Stop Chasing Virality with Mark Roberge

    Stop Chasing Virality with Mark Roberge
    Apr 1 2026
    In this episode, host Max Bernstein sits down with Mark Roberge, a musician, founder of FanFlowy, to break down the systems-driven approach behind building a sustainable music career in today’s industry. He is also the co-founder of Make Our Music and serves as CEO of Bamrock Entertainment and Prospect Hill Entertainment.Mark shares how artists can move beyond chasing virality and instead build predictable, scalable growth using marketing funnels, fan acquisition strategies, and automation. Drawing from his experience as both a touring musician and tech founder, he explains why Spotify followers, not just monthly listeners, are the key metric for long-term revenue, and how independent artists can realistically generate six-figure incomes through a combination of streaming, merch, and live shows.Together, Max and Mark explore how to treat music like an e-commerce business, why owning your audience is critical, and how to turn casual listeners into lifelong superfans through intentional systems and storytelling.Key TakeawaysWhy Spotify followers matter more than monthly listeners for long-term incomeHow to build a full-funnel marketing system for music (ads → fans → superfans)The role of merch, live shows, and community in maximizing fan lifetime valueHow automation and tools like FanFlowy reduce workload while scaling growthWhy consistency, not virality, is the foundation of a sustainable music careerKey Timestamps00:00 – Followers vs. monthly listeners: the metric that actually drives revenue01:24 – How 50K Spotify followers can translate into $100K+ annual income04:20 – Building real fans vs. chasing viral moments06:46 – Applying e-commerce funnels to music marketing19:29 – What high-converting ads for artists actually look like23:18 – Inside the fan journey: from signup to superfandom31:26 – Using SMS, email, and automation to nurture fans37:55 – How much work artists actually need to put in41:26 – Final thoughts - where to connectFollow Our Guest, Mark RobergeMake Our Music website: https://www.makeourmusic.com/ Make Our Music LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/make-our-music/FanFlowy Website: https://fanflowy.com/Mark Roberge LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-roberge/Prospect Hill Entertainment LLC Website: https://prospecthillband.com/Bamrock Entertainment LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bamrock-entertainment/Make Our Music Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makeourmusicMake Our Music Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makeourmusicMake Our Music Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@makeourmusicFollow the Host Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    39 mins
  • The Team Energy Fix for Music Leaders to Stop Burnout Fast with Marni Wandner

    The Team Energy Fix for Music Leaders to Stop Burnout Fast with Marni Wandner
    Mar 13 2026
    In this episode, host Max Bernstein sits down with Marni Wandner, founder of Future Present, to explore how leadership, burnout prevention, and human-centered systems can reshape the way the music industry works.Drawing from her journey through artist management, running a successful marketing agency, experiencing burnout, and ultimately building a coaching and consulting practice, Marni introduces the Five Archetypes framework, based on the Chinese elements, as a practical tool for understanding behavior, communication styles, and stress responses.Together, Max and Marni unpack how self-awareness improves collaboration, why energy management is more important than time management, and how companies can scale sustainably by designing systems that support people, not just output.Key TakeawaysWhat the Five Archetypes (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water) reveal about leadership and decision-makingHow burnout shows up differently depending on personality and stress responseWhy self-awareness is the foundation of better collaboration and communicationHow to manage energy sustainably in high-pressure creative environmentsWhy healthy systems, not hustle are the key to long-term success in musicKey Timestamps00:00 – What is Future Present and the philosophy behind the work02:08 – How Marni works with music companies and creative teams04:31 – Integrating neuroscience, leadership, and the Five Archetypes12:00 – Inside the Five Archetypes assessment and group sessions15:08 – Live archetype analysis of Max’s leadership style23:22 – Using archetypes to make better decisions under pressure26 24 – Can archetypes change over time? Nature vs. nurture35:04 – Burnout risk, stress tolerance, and resilience46:56 – Energy management, systems, and avoiding constant fire drills56:32 – Real-world company transformation case study59:08 – Mergers, acquisitions, and human-centered integrationFollow Our Guest, Marni WandnerFuture Present website: https://www.futurepresentco.com/Marni Wandner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniwandner/Marni Wandner Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marniwandner/Future Present Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurepresentco/Follow the Host Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    1 hr
  • Your Lost Music Royalties with Jamie Hart

    Your Lost Music Royalties with Jamie Hart
    Feb 26 2026
    In this episode, host Max Bernstein sits down with Jamie Dee Hart founder of Hart & Songs, a music rights management expert who helps artists, writers, and management teams clean up registrations and collect the royalties they’re owed. Jamie breaks down the real-world consequences of skipping “boring admin” from unclaimed royalties that can expire after a limited retroactive window to situations where someone else claims your work in YouTube Content ID.Together, they walk through what actually needs to happen once a song is finished and released, collecting writer info and IPI numbers, locking in splits, registering songs with PROs and the MLC, setting up YouTube publishing monetization, and making sure sound recording royalties like SoundExchange aren’t missed. They also discuss how independent artists and managers can keep their catalog clean, avoid royalty delays, and be better positioned when opportunities and deals come along.Key Takeaways:Unregistered songs can forfeit past royalties after a limited retroactive windowSplit discrepancies can pause payouts until all parties agree to amendmentsPub admins help collect key royalties you can’t easily collect yourself (incl. YouTube publishing-side)Proper metadata (IPI, publisher info, ISRC) is essential for tracking and matchingManager checklist: PRO + pub admin + YouTube/Content ID coverage + SoundExchange performer setupKey Timestamps:00:00:00 - Jamie’s background in rights management00:04:57 - What artists lose when they don’t register00:07:10 - The retroactive window (why older streams can be gone)00:10:54 - Why a publishing admin is critical00:17:47 - Top-to-bottom workflow: splits, PRO, admin, ISRC00:21:06 - How split disputes delay royalties00:32:35 - YouTube, Music Reports/Peloton, SoundExchange, neighboring rights58:08:07 - Jamie’s 3-month cleanup + training approach01:01:00 - notes.fm and the “catalog health check” ideaFollow our guest, Jamie Dee Hart:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiedhart/Hart & Songs LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hart-and-songs/Hart & Songs Website: https://www.hartandsongs.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiedeehart/?hl=enFollow the Host Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    1 hr and 4 mins
  • The One Person Record Company with Alexander Ciccimarro

    The One Person Record Company with Alexander Ciccimarro
    Feb 12 2026
    In this episode, host Max Bernstein welcomes Alexander Ciccimarro, Vice President of Marketing at RCA Records, to talk about the evolution of music marketing, artist branding, and the operational systems powering today’s record labels. From orchestrating viral blog-era moments to championing AI-driven label workflows, Alexander unpacks how he navigated a career from mixtape culture to music executive leadership.Together, they explore the critical role of systems design in the modern music business, the future of small, agile record labels, and why the labels of tomorrow will be built on a single source of truth. This episode is essential for marketers, artists, and operators rethinking how the industry can scale human creativity through smart infrastructure.Key Takeaways:How early message boards and viral rap moments launched Alexander into music marketingThe story behind launching Cardi B’s “Bodak Yellow” and other early Atlantic Records winsWhy “Same Plate” focused on fair, profit-sharing deals and the ethos of “Everyone Eats”How AI, no-code tools, and centralized systems are transforming label operationsWhy the future of music will be run by “rainmakers” empowered by lean teams and AIKey Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction to Alexander Ciccimarro04:40 - Hustling between NYC and ATL with Two-9 and Fatman Key13:10 - Launching Same Plate with a mission-driven label model19:00 - Fair deal structures and building the “Everyone Eats” ethos27:00 - Evolving personal branding and leadership in the digital age34:00 - Vision for the future: systems over chaos in label operations41:40 - Why AI won’t replace people, but systems will empower them47:00 - The single source of truth as the foundation of future labels49:00 - Final thoughts on systems, training, and the human-AI bridgeFollow our guest, Alexander Ciccimarro:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-ciccimarro-4185ba80/RCA Records LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rca-records/RCA Records Website: https://www.rcarecords.com/Follow the Host Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    49 mins
  • How The GRAMMYS Work with Dr. Chelsey Green

    How The GRAMMYS Work with Dr. Chelsey Green
    Jan 29 2026
    In this episode, host Max Bernstein sits down with Dr. Chelsey Green, a genre-crossing violinist, educator, and now Chair of the Board of Trustees at the Recording Academy. Known for her work as a classical and contemporary musician, Dr. Chelsey shares how a spontaneous open-mic performance led her down a transformative path, from performing with a touring R&B band to shaping the future of the music industry.This episode provides an inside look at what the Recording Academy does beyond the Grammy Awards, encompassing music education, professional development, advocacy, and global outreach. Dr. Chelsey also examines the Academy's stance on AI in music, the impact of peer-voted recognition, and why this moment is critical for community building and connectivity in the industry.Key Takeaways:How Chelsey Green transitioned from classical violinist to Chair of the Recording Academy BoardWhat the Recording Academy really does beyond the Grammy AwardsHow independent artists can submit music and earn nominationsWhy ethical AI and global connection are central to the Academy’s future visionHow creators and industry executives alike can plug into their local Recording Academy chaptersKey Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction to Dr. Chelsey Green02:37 – From open mic surprise to R&B bandleader05:21 – The Recording Academy’s mission beyond the Grammys10:15 – How creators can join and participate15:19 – How Chelsey's Grammy perspective has evolved19:12 – Demystifying the Grammy voting process22:07 – Grammy wins and the independent artist career boost30:36 – The potential and pitfalls of AI in music34:06 – Final thoughts for industry leaders and creatorsFollow our guest, Dr. Chelsey Green:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchelseygreen/Website: https://www.chelseygreen.com/, https://www.recordingacademy.com/, https://www.grammy.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchelseygreen/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GreenProjectTGP/Follow the Host Max Bernstein:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/X: https://x.com/relationlcoFollow RELATIONL:Website: https://www.relationl.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@relationlLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    37 mins
  • Airtable vs Notion with Alessandro Viola

    Airtable vs Notion with Alessandro Viola
    Jan 21 2026

    In this episode, host Max Bernstein talks with Alessandro Viola, a classically trained percussionist turned low-code systems architect at Warner Classics. Alessandro shares his unique journey from growing up immersed in classical music to building internal software systems that are transforming the way classical record labels operate.

    He offers a rare look behind the curtain of the classical music industry, discussing how rights management and marketing works in the Classics genre. The conversation also dives deep into the no-code/low-code world, comparing tools like Notion and Airtable, and exploring how tech-savvy creatives can build impactful tools within their companies, often without writing a single line of code.

    Key Takeaways:

    1. How Alessandro transitioned from performer to tech lead at a major label
    2. What it means to manage 400+ years of music in the modern recording industry
    3. The role of classical music in today’s streaming and performance landscape
    4. How Airtable and Notion stack up for internal system building and knowledge management
    5. Why low-code tools are becoming essential infrastructure across creative industries

    Key Timestamps:

    00:00 - Introduction to Alessandro Viola

    03:30 - Ownership and public domain of classical music catalogs

    09:00 - Classical music and pop music crossovers (Rosalía)

    13:00 - The future of classical music and modern trends

    17:26 - Building tools with Airtable and no-code platforms at Warner

    32:36 - setting-up tools with extra functionalities

    45:00 - Closing thoughts on the future of low-code/no-code tools like notion and airtable

    Follow our guest, Alessandro Viola:

    1. Alessandro’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ale-viola/
    2. Warner Music Group’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/warner-music-group/
    3. Warner Music Group Website: https://www.wmg.com/

    Follow the Host Max Bernstein:

    1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mberns01/
    2. X: https://x.com/relationlco

    Follow RELATIONL:

    1. Website: https://www.relationl.co/
    2. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/relationl/
    3. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationlco/
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    44 mins