In this wide-ranging and timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Sáa is joined by Ioannis Ioannou, Associate Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship at London Business School. The pair reflect on what the ESG backlash of 2025 has revealed, and what it means for investors, companies, and policymakers heading into 2026.

Drawing on nearly two decades of academic research at the intersection of sustainability, corporate strategy, and financial markets, Ioannis offers a clear-eyed assessment of where sustainable investing has fallen short, where it has matured, and how it must now evolve. From green washing and fragmented regulation to regionalisation, data quality, and the limits of ESG ratings, this conversation goes beyond surface-level narratives to explore sustainability as a political economy and systems challenge.

Together, Lorenzo and Ioannis unpack why backlash was inevitable, how it exposed genuine commitment (and lack thereof), and why the next phase of sustainable investing will be defined by resilience, governance, and long-term system change rather than short-term compliance.

Key topics include:

• ✅ 2025 as the year of “peak ESG backlash”, and what we learned from it
• ✅ Why sustainability progress is non-linear and politically contested
• ✅ Green hushing vs. credible communication: why silence is not the answer
• ✅ Regionalisation and policy fragmentation in global decarbonisation
• ✅ How investors can identify real commitment beyond ESG scores
• ✅ The evolving role, and limits, of ESG data and ratings
• ✅ Why adaptation, nature, and social issues must rise alongside climate
• ✅ Coalitions, alliances, and the future of collective action
• ✅ “Trap competencies”: undervalued skills and capabilities for a sustainable economy
• ✅ AI and technology through a sustainability governance lens
• ✅ The skills sustainability professionals will need in 2026 and beyond

Whether you’re an investor navigating regulatory uncertainty, a sustainability leader facing internal scepticism, or a policymaker grappling with coordination challenges, this episode offers thoughtful guidance on how to move forward with clarity and conviction.

🎧 Listen now for a grounded, research-led perspective on what sustainable investing needs next.

Key Moments:

• 0:00 - Introduction & Guest Background
• 7:01 - 2025: The Year of Peak Backlash
• 15:26 - System-Level Investing & Regional Fragmentation
• 24:39 - Looking Ahead: 2026 Predictions
• 28:11 - Net Zero Coalitions & Alliances
• 33:07 - Sustainability Careers & Trapped Competencies
• 40:00 - Message to Investors & AI Governance
• 46:00 - Quick Fire Questions & Closing

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In this compelling episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dario Mangilli, Head of Sustainability at Impact SGR, to explore how sustainable and impact investing must evolve for a world facing accelerating climate impacts, geopolitical instability, and a post-ESG landscape.

Building on a conversation sparked at a conference in Milan, Lorenzo and Dario unpack what it means to invest in what he calls a “disaster economy”, a world where physical climate risks are arriving earlier than expected, traditional ESG frameworks are losing relevance, and investors are being pushed toward a more thematic, impact-driven approach.

Dario offers a unique perspective shaped by his climate policy background, academic training, and hands-on work designing listed impact strategies. Together, they discuss how to scale impact beyond niche allocations, why systemic impact investing is urgently needed, and how structural trends, from energy security to demographics and AI, will determine where capital must flow next.

Key topics include:

✅️ Impact investing at scale: Why limiting impact to 0.5–1% of pension fund portfolios is no longer viable.

✅️ ESG is over: Why generalist ESG frameworks fail—and how thematic, impact-focused strategies can replace them.

✅️ Climate risk underestimated: Satellite data showing physical risks arriving a decade earlier than models predicted.

✅️ Energy security & the Green Deal: How Europe “sold it wrong” and why sustainability must be framed around affordability and competitiveness.

✅️ Regulation that works vs. noise: SFDR, SFDR 2.0, labels, and why disclosure alone won’t drive capital.

✅️ Systemic impact approach: Applying intentionality, measurability, and impact limits across listed strategies.

✅️ AI as a structural trend: Power demand, cooling constraints, stretched valuations, and why AI could be a massive net positive—with guardrails.

✅️ Defense, mispriced sectors, and the future of sustainability narratives.

Whether you're an investor, policymaker, or sustainability leader, this episode offers a bold rethinking of how we need to invest, financially and ethically, for a world that is already changing faster than expected.

🎧 Listen now to understand how impact investing can become a systemic, future-proof investment paradigm.

00:01 - Lorenzo sets the frame: investing in a “disaster economy”

02:22 - Dario’s path into sustainability & listed impact investing

05:26 - Why impact must scale beyond private markets

16:22 - The post-ESG shift: thematic investing as the new sustainable framework

19:10 - Climate risks arriving faster than expected

21:15 - Structural trends reshaping markets

27:52 - Regulation that drives capital vs. regulation that drives compliance

35:55 - A new operating model for sustainable investing

42:38 - AI as a structural force, and a sustainability challenge

47:40 - Art, metaphors & quickfire insights

51:31 - Closing: Investing for a rapidly changing world

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In this thought-provoking episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa is joined by Alex Rayón, Chief Executive Officer of Brain & Code, to explore the real opportunities – and urgent challenges – posed by artificial intelligence in sustainable finance.

From AI’s staggering energy demand to its risks of bias, opacity, and concentration of power, Lorenzo and Alex go beyond the hype to unpack what responsible AI truly means for investors, businesses, and society.

Alex, a PhD in Computer Science and early researcher in neural networks, brings a rare perspective – one that spans both the technical foundations of AI and its ethical, environmental, and economic implications. Together, they explore how sustainability and AI must evolve together if we’re to unlock innovation without losing our humanity.

Key topics include:

✅️ AI’s limits and human value: What machines can’t do – and how we must redefine our work

✅️ Governance and risk: From cybersecurity to copyright, what businesses can’t afford to ignore

✅️ The hidden cost of AI: Why today’s prices don’t reflect the true energy and environmental impact

✅️ Data and bias: Why the problem isn’t AI itself, but the data we feed it

✅️ Education and the future of work: How the next generation must be trained for an AI-augmented world

✅️ Concentration and regulation: Can the EU’s approach balance innovation and ethics?

Whether you’re an investor, policymaker, or technologist, this conversation offers a refreshingly honest take on how AI can empower – but also endanger – the path to sustainable growth.

🎧Listen now to hear the full conversation.

Key Moments:

00:00 – Introduction by Lorenzo Saa

02:12 – How Alex’s AI journey began – and its link to sustainability

05:14 – The real business, individual, and societal risks of AI

08:22 – Why cybersecurity is the new frontier

10:05 – Copyright, data ownership, and the myth of “inspiration”

12:21 – Explainability vs. trust: Can we still use what we don’t fully understand?

14:36 – AI’s environmental cost and the illusion of cheap compute

17:55 – Smarter models, cleaner data, and corporate responsibility

20:16 – Can AI reduce or reinforce bias?

22:28 – Cultural blind spots and the dominance of Western data

24:00 – Are we outsourcing our intelligence? The risks of cognitive offloading

25:46 – The next generation and the changing nature of work

27:47 – Concentration of power: Big Tech, big risks

29:52 – EU vs. US regulation: Two worlds, one technology

31:37 – AGI and the myth of machine consciousness

34:37 – The net impact of AI: Positive, but only if it complements us

36:48 – The art of sustainability

37:36 – Alex’s final message: Engage responsibly, stay informed

38:12 – Quick-fire questions

39:49 – Closing thoughts and credits

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