In this timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dan Neale, Social Lead in the Responsible Investment Team at the Church Commissioners for England, to explore one of the most contested questions in sustainable finance today: how should investors think about defence?

With a background spanning responsible investment, human rights consulting, and service in the Royal Navy and NATO, Dan brings a rare, grounded perspective to a debate often dominated by headlines and binaries. As geopolitics reshapes capital flows, from the war in Ukraine to rising defence budgets across Europe, the conversation unpacks the crucial distinction between investing responsibly in defence-related companies and labelling defence as “sustainable.”

Together, Lorenzo and Dan examine how investor policies are shifting, why regulatory frameworks and taxonomies have accelerated the debate, and where the real risks, and responsibilities, sit for asset owners and managers. From geographic screening thresholds and human rights due diligence to dual-use technologies, controversial weapons, and emerging principles for responsible defence investment, this episode offers a nuanced, practical lens on an issue many investors are now being forced to confront.

✅ Defence vs sustainability: why the distinction matters

✅ How geopolitics and regulation are reshaping investor approaches

✅ The Church Commissioners’ updated defence policy and geographic thresholds

✅ Why screening alone is not enough without due diligence

✅ Dual-use technologies and the blurred lines between civilian and military applications

✅ Controversial weapons, nuclear risk, and red lines for investors

✅ Data gaps, transparency challenges, and conflict-affected areas

✅ Principles for Responsible Defence Investment (PRDI): what they are, and what they are not

✅ AI, drones, and the realities of tech-driven warfare

✅ Human rights responsibilities under international humanitarian law

Whether you’re an asset owner, investment manager, policymaker, or sustainability professional, this episode offers a clear framework for thinking about defence, not as a moral abstraction, but as a responsible investment challenge that requires judgment, data, and accountability.

🎧 Listen now to understand why defence may not be “sustainable”, but why responsibility still matters.



• Introduction: Defense Meets Sustainable Investing (0:48)
• Dan Neil's Background: From Navy to Responsible Investment (2:27)
• The Changing Landscape: Europe's Defense Investment Shift (4:42)
• Is Defense a Sustainable Investment? (6:18)
• Church Commissioners' Policy Changes (8:44)
• Dual Use Technology and the Defense Supply Chain (15:26)
• Controversial Weapons and Nuclear Arms (17:56)
• Principles for Responsible Defense Investment (PRDI) (27:22)
• Human Rights Data and Due Diligence Challenges (33:42)
• AI, Technology, and the Future of Warfare (38:38)

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In this wide-ranging and timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Sáa is joined by Ioannis Ioannou, Associate Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship at London Business School. The pair reflect on what the ESG backlash of 2025 has revealed, and what it means for investors, companies, and policymakers heading into 2026.

Drawing on nearly two decades of academic research at the intersection of sustainability, corporate strategy, and financial markets, Ioannis offers a clear-eyed assessment of where sustainable investing has fallen short, where it has matured, and how it must now evolve. From green washing and fragmented regulation to regionalisation, data quality, and the limits of ESG ratings, this conversation goes beyond surface-level narratives to explore sustainability as a political economy and systems challenge.

Together, Lorenzo and Ioannis unpack why backlash was inevitable, how it exposed genuine commitment (and lack thereof), and why the next phase of sustainable investing will be defined by resilience, governance, and long-term system change rather than short-term compliance.

Key topics include:

• ✅ 2025 as the year of “peak ESG backlash”, and what we learned from it
• ✅ Why sustainability progress is non-linear and politically contested
• ✅ Green hushing vs. credible communication: why silence is not the answer
• ✅ Regionalisation and policy fragmentation in global decarbonisation
• ✅ How investors can identify real commitment beyond ESG scores
• ✅ The evolving role, and limits, of ESG data and ratings
• ✅ Why adaptation, nature, and social issues must rise alongside climate
• ✅ Coalitions, alliances, and the future of collective action
• ✅ “Trap competencies”: undervalued skills and capabilities for a sustainable economy
• ✅ AI and technology through a sustainability governance lens
• ✅ The skills sustainability professionals will need in 2026 and beyond

Whether you’re an investor navigating regulatory uncertainty, a sustainability leader facing internal scepticism, or a policymaker grappling with coordination challenges, this episode offers thoughtful guidance on how to move forward with clarity and conviction.

🎧 Listen now for a grounded, research-led perspective on what sustainable investing needs next.

Key Moments:

• 0:00 - Introduction & Guest Background
• 7:01 - 2025: The Year of Peak Backlash
• 15:26 - System-Level Investing & Regional Fragmentation
• 24:39 - Looking Ahead: 2026 Predictions
• 28:11 - Net Zero Coalitions & Alliances
• 33:07 - Sustainability Careers & Trapped Competencies
• 40:00 - Message to Investors & AI Governance
• 46:00 - Quick Fire Questions & Closing

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In this compelling episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dario Mangilli, Head of Sustainability at Impact SGR, to explore how sustainable and impact investing must evolve for a world facing accelerating climate impacts, geopolitical instability, and a post-ESG landscape.

Building on a conversation sparked at a conference in Milan, Lorenzo and Dario unpack what it means to invest in what he calls a “disaster economy”, a world where physical climate risks are arriving earlier than expected, traditional ESG frameworks are losing relevance, and investors are being pushed toward a more thematic, impact-driven approach.

Dario offers a unique perspective shaped by his climate policy background, academic training, and hands-on work designing listed impact strategies. Together, they discuss how to scale impact beyond niche allocations, why systemic impact investing is urgently needed, and how structural trends, from energy security to demographics and AI, will determine where capital must flow next.

Key topics include:

✅️ Impact investing at scale: Why limiting impact to 0.5–1% of pension fund portfolios is no longer viable.

✅️ ESG is over: Why generalist ESG frameworks fail—and how thematic, impact-focused strategies can replace them.

✅️ Climate risk underestimated: Satellite data showing physical risks arriving a decade earlier than models predicted.

✅️ Energy security & the Green Deal: How Europe “sold it wrong” and why sustainability must be framed around affordability and competitiveness.

✅️ Regulation that works vs. noise: SFDR, SFDR 2.0, labels, and why disclosure alone won’t drive capital.

✅️ Systemic impact approach: Applying intentionality, measurability, and impact limits across listed strategies.

✅️ AI as a structural trend: Power demand, cooling constraints, stretched valuations, and why AI could be a massive net positive—with guardrails.

✅️ Defense, mispriced sectors, and the future of sustainability narratives.

Whether you're an investor, policymaker, or sustainability leader, this episode offers a bold rethinking of how we need to invest, financially and ethically, for a world that is already changing faster than expected.

🎧 Listen now to understand how impact investing can become a systemic, future-proof investment paradigm.

00:01 - Lorenzo sets the frame: investing in a “disaster economy”

02:22 - Dario’s path into sustainability & listed impact investing

05:26 - Why impact must scale beyond private markets

16:22 - The post-ESG shift: thematic investing as the new sustainable framework

19:10 - Climate risks arriving faster than expected

21:15 - Structural trends reshaping markets

27:52 - Regulation that drives capital vs. regulation that drives compliance

35:55 - A new operating model for sustainable investing

42:38 - AI as a structural force, and a sustainability challenge

47:40 - Art, metaphors & quickfire insights

51:31 - Closing: Investing for a rapidly changing world

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In this thought-provoking episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa is joined by Alex Rayón, Chief Executive Officer of Brain & Code, to explore the real opportunities – and urgent challenges – posed by artificial intelligence in sustainable finance.

From AI’s staggering energy demand to its risks of bias, opacity, and concentration of power, Lorenzo and Alex go beyond the hype to unpack what responsible AI truly means for investors, businesses, and society.

Alex, a PhD in Computer Science and early researcher in neural networks, brings a rare perspective – one that spans both the technical foundations of AI and its ethical, environmental, and economic implications. Together, they explore how sustainability and AI must evolve together if we’re to unlock innovation without losing our humanity.

Key topics include:

✅️ AI’s limits and human value: What machines can’t do – and how we must redefine our work

✅️ Governance and risk: From cybersecurity to copyright, what businesses can’t afford to ignore

✅️ The hidden cost of AI: Why today’s prices don’t reflect the true energy and environmental impact

✅️ Data and bias: Why the problem isn’t AI itself, but the data we feed it

✅️ Education and the future of work: How the next generation must be trained for an AI-augmented world

✅️ Concentration and regulation: Can the EU’s approach balance innovation and ethics?

Whether you’re an investor, policymaker, or technologist, this conversation offers a refreshingly honest take on how AI can empower – but also endanger – the path to sustainable growth.

🎧Listen now to hear the full conversation.

Key Moments:

00:00 – Introduction by Lorenzo Saa

02:12 – How Alex’s AI journey began – and its link to sustainability

05:14 – The real business, individual, and societal risks of AI

08:22 – Why cybersecurity is the new frontier

10:05 – Copyright, data ownership, and the myth of “inspiration”

12:21 – Explainability vs. trust: Can we still use what we don’t fully understand?

14:36 – AI’s environmental cost and the illusion of cheap compute

17:55 – Smarter models, cleaner data, and corporate responsibility

20:16 – Can AI reduce or reinforce bias?

22:28 – Cultural blind spots and the dominance of Western data

24:00 – Are we outsourcing our intelligence? The risks of cognitive offloading

25:46 – The next generation and the changing nature of work

27:47 – Concentration of power: Big Tech, big risks

29:52 – EU vs. US regulation: Two worlds, one technology

31:37 – AGI and the myth of machine consciousness

34:37 – The net impact of AI: Positive, but only if it complements us

36:48 – The art of sustainability

37:36 – Alex’s final message: Engage responsibly, stay informed

38:12 – Quick-fire questions

39:49 – Closing thoughts and credits

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In this timely episode, Lorenzo Saa sits down with Wendy Cromwell, Vice Chair and Head of Sustainable Investment at Wellington, to unpack the case for climate adaptation across public and private markets.

Starting from the now-famous “basis points vs. RCP scenarios” story with Woodwell Climate Research Center, Wendy explains how investors and scientists can bridge languages to price physical climate risk and fund real solutions. From data gaps to the tension between decarbonisation and resilience, this is a practical guide to investing for a world already experiencing heat, drought, wildfire, hurricanes, floods, water stress, and sea level rise.

Key topics include:
✅ The adaptation imperative: why mitigation alone isn’t enough through 2040–2050
✅ Turning science into basis points: Wellington’s CERA tool and the seven perils framework
✅ Public markets for adaptation: solution providers in HVAC, generators, engineering, water, pest control, and health care
✅ Location, location, location: why disclosure of physical sites and supply chains is essential
✅ Risk in practice: issuers, municipals, securitized, and the floodplain factory example
✅ Tech enablement: NLP for idea sourcing and AI tools for supply-chain transparency
✅ Policy and markets: how asset-owner mandates and COP can elevate adaptation metrics

Whether you manage equities, credit, munis, or multi-asset, this episode shows how to assess physical risk, price resilience, and back companies that help society survive—and thrive—in a changed climate.

🎧 Listen now for concrete ways to integrate adaptation into real portfolios.

Key Moments:
00:00 – The “basis points vs. RCP scenarios” story
01:04 – Why adaptation belongs alongside mitigation
03:14 – Wendy’s path to sustainable investment leadership
07:50 – Why physical risk was neglected, and the Woodwell partnership
11:40 – The tension: decarbonisation targets vs. adaptation investments
14:31 – Inside CERA, the Climate Exposure Risk Application
16:49 – From risk to opportunity: identifying adaptation solution providers
20:25 – What counts as an adaptation company
22:41 – Case study: a $2B plant in a floodplain
24:02 – Advocating for disclosure of physical locations
26:59 – How AI and NLP support adaptation investing
28:34 – Call to action: fund solutions and assess risk
36:32 – Playing climate with both hands: mitigation and adaptation

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💰 Everyone’s talking about climate ambition. But who’s designing the systems to actually deliver it?

In this episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa speaks with Dan Ioschpe, Brazil’s Climate High-Level Champion for COP30. Drawing from decades in the private sector, Dan outlines how COP30 is being shaped not by slogans or new pledges—but by a detailed, globally coordinated architecture for action.

From financing roadmaps and carbon market regulation to the Tropical Forest Forever Fund, Dan breaks down the concrete mechanisms being built to turn climate goals into scalable outcomes. He also shares what this means for institutional investors—and why now is the time to engage, not retreat.

They explore:
✅ The three biggest financial outcomes to watch at COP30
✅ Why Brazil isn’t proposing new pledges—and how that enables real progress
✅ How the Action Agenda is built around 30 clear objectives, not abstract commitments
✅ What makes the Tropical Forest Forever Fund (TFF) different from traditional climate finance
✅ Why AI and data infrastructure will be critical to emerging market transition pathways

Key Moments:

00:00 - Introduction
01:56 - Dan’s private-sector background and how he became a COP30 Climate Champion
04:44 - What the High-Level Champion actually does and why it matters
07:46 - Is COP still useful after 30 years?
09:56 - What investors should and shouldn’t expect from COP30
14:17 - Climate finance: roadmap to $1.3T, carbon credits, and the TFF
17:58 - How the TFF ties forest preservation to long-term funding
20:13 - Why COP30 will focus on existing initiatives, not new pledges
26:42 - Should investors attend COP30?
31:39 - The role of AI and Infrastructure in Brazil’s Climate Strategy
35:50 - Why continuity—not headlines—is the biggest potential win of COP30
37:08 - The art of sustainability
38:07 - Rapid fire questions
40:53 - Closing statements


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In this candid and wide-ranging conversation, Lorenzo Saa sits down with James Gifford and Fiona Reynolds—former Chief Executive Officers of the Principles for Responsible Investment (PRI)—to reflect on the state of sustainable investing amid today’s headwinds.

With the PRI celebrating its 20th anniversary, this episode explores whether the organization still meets the needs of institutional investors, or whether it must radically evolve.

James and Fiona don’t hold back. They critique EU regulation, question the compliance-heavy trajectory of ESG, and challenge the PRI to pivot from advocacy to collaborative investment. They also weigh the promises and pitfalls of artificial intelligence in the sustainability space—especially in emerging markets.

Key topics include:
✅️ The ESG backlash: Why it happened, what’s fair, and what’s next
✅️ Regulation fatigue: Has sustainable investing become a box-ticking exercise?
✅️ PRI’s evolution: Should it focus on frameworks or on helping investors deploy capital?
✅️ AI’s role: Can it drive innovation or will it amplify the risks?

Whether you're an asset owner, asset manager, or sustainability leader, this episode offers hard-hitting insights on what’s broken in the system—and what must change.
🎧 Listen now to hear the full conversation with two industry pioneers who helped build the sustainable finance movement.

Key Moments:
00:00 – Intro by Lorenzo Saa
01:46 – Introduction to Fiona Reynolds and James Gifford
05:25 – ESG backlash
10:16 – ESG has become a compliance industry
15:07 – Is regulation hurting more than it helps?
23:12 – What resilience looks like
27:15 – The Principals for Responsible Investing at 20: Should it continue?
33:31 – Collaboration on policy and investment
36:23 – Rewriting the PRI principles
45:14 – Can AI help investors close the gap between ambition and action?
52:01 – What gives James and Fiona hope for the future of sustainable investing?
53:02 – The Art of Sustainability

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🔎 Is stewardship still delivering results, or just dialogue? As investor engagement on environmental and social issues faces political pushback and legal risks, investors are rethinking what effective stewardship looks like in a more demanding and skeptical environment.

In this episode of Sustainability Wired, Clarity AI’s Chief Sustainability Officer Lorenzo Saa speaks with Valeria Piani, Chair of the Climate Action 100+ Steering Committee and Head of Stewardship at Phoenix Group. They explore what’s next for stewardship and whether it can still drive meaningful change.

They discuss:

✅ Why outcomes, not activity, must define effective stewardship

✅ How Climate Action 100+ is adapting to maintain relevance and credibility

✅ The power of trust-based relationships and “click moments” in company engagement

✅ How AI can streamline research and oversight without replacing human judgment

🎧 Tune in for a candid conversation on the future of active ownership and stewardship.

🔗 Follow Clarity AI for more insights: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clarity-ai