Oliver Burkeman has a brutal but liberating message - you will never do it all. Accept that and the real work can begin.

In this expansive chat, Oliver (journalist and author of Four Thousand Weeks, Meditations for Mortals, The Imperfectionist), joins me to explore the counterintuitive truth at the heart of modern life: that embracing limits is the gateway to living well.

We talk about insecure overachieving, parenting, Zen, email, death, and the strange liberation that comes from realising it’s all going to be a mess anyway. Oliver shares his own journey from perfectionism to “imperfectionism,” and we dig into what it really means to live a finite, meaningful, creative life in the age of infinite demands.

If you're a high-functioning procrastinator like me, battling endlessly with the hydra of your never ending self-expectations—you're going to like this.

We cover:

• The 4-hour workday principle
• Insecure overachievement: the emotional engine behind ambition
• Why facing our mortality clarifies things
• Zen, Stoicism, and the power of giving up
• How parenthood changes your relationship with time
• Email overwhelm, control-freakery, and the illusion of perfect systems
• Internal Family Systems (IFS), Focusing and the many parts within us
• What organizations and leaders can learn from “imperfectionism”
• Whether meaningful societal change can emerge from individual awakening
• Morning pages and the one practice Oliver always returns to

Why Listen:

If you ever feel crushed under the weight of your own dreams, stuck in a loop of planning without doing, or haunted by the feeling that you will die unfulfilled—this conversation will soothe you with a balm of friendly rationality and offer poetic license to just be and do the best you can.

This episode is apparently about teenagers, but it's also about the adult world we inhabit and create every day. We all started as a bored or engaged kids at school, and these learning identities live on in the careers and lives we build for ourselves as grown ups.

Jenny Anderson is an award-winning journalist, former New York Times reporter, and co-author of The Disengaged Teen. Underpinned by impressive research, Jenny and her co-author flag an important and timely narrative about the crisis of disengagement in education — and why it says as much about adult life and modern work as it does about kids.

Across education, parenting and careers, our biggest problem is not performance but the erosion of self-directed meaning. What Jenny calls Explorer Mode — the capacity to know what matters to us and pursue it flexibly — is the missing developmental thread linking disengaged teens to disenchanted adults.

I invited this conversation to help me understand — as an adult — why my drive to achieve so often trumps my desires to explore, creative and simply do what I feel like (vs what I 'should' be doing).

To to this end, Jenny introduces a powerful framework for understanding learning through four modes: the Passenger, the Resistor, the Achiever, and the Explorer. We unpack why achievement can coexist with anxiety and emptiness, how agency matters as much as effort, and why curiosity — not compliance — is the missing ingredient in most learning systems. The conversation moves beyond schools to some of the biggest themes of our time: presence vs productivity, neurodiversity, and the pressure many of us feel to optimise our own and our children’s lives.

And we turn our sights on the adult world — where many high-performing professionals find themselves successful on paper, but disconnected from meaning, creativity or joy. What would it look like to live less in “achiever mode” and more as an explorer? And how early do we need to practice that skill?

This is a conversation about learning, agency and what it really means to thrive — for teenagers, parents, and grown-ups alike.

I recorded this conversation with Jenny about 9 months ago, but the wisdom of the explorer archetype won't be aging any time soon.

Topics we explore include:

• Why disengagement is often a rational response to environmental factors
• The hidden cost of achievement without feeling control
• Neurodiversity, misfit environments, and the myth of the “normal” learner
• What schools, workplaces, and societies reward — and what they erode
• How “explorer mode” might be the most important life skill in an AI-shaped future

About the guest
Jenny Anderson is an award-winning journalist and author whose work spans finance, education, parenting, and learning science. She previously reported for The New York Times and Quartz, and is the co-author of The Disengaged Teen, published in the UK and internationally in 2025.

https://www.thedisengagedteen.com

What does it mean to see the world clearly as it is? Why do simple narratives make it so hard for us to achieve that, and to live well together?

In this wide-ranging conversation with philosopher, author, and constellator Robert Rowland Smith we explore what it means to face reality without rushing to solutions, explanations or positions. Drawing on a life immersed in academia, business, systemic constellations, poetry, and spiritual traditions, Robert reflects on surrender, ambiguity and the fascinations that join his work together.

In this episode we talk about the limits of rationalism and science, the illusion of human progress and global productivity culture. Along the way, Robert shares some of his personal inspirations, his vision for “Hotel Philosophy,” and the self-doubt that continues to sit alongside his prolific public creativity.

Topics include

• Systemic constellations and surrender vs mastery
• Why narratives stop us seeing reality clearly
• Ambiguity as a mark of maturity
• The divine as immanent and transcendent
• Productivity culture and the limits of leadership programmes
• Art, philosophy, business, and following energy
• Neighbourliness as service without heroics
• Self-doubt, creativity, and continuing to show up

Show links

Robert's homepage - https://www.robertrowlandsmith.com/

Philosophy Slam - www.philosophyslam.net

YouTube - robertrowlandsmith