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The Intangible Brand

The Intangible Brand

Written by: TOKY & Cline
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Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. Each episode offers practical insights and inspiration for building a brand people are proud to work for — and eager to work with.


The Intangible Brand is brought to you by Cline and TOKY.


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© 2026 TOKY Group, Inc. and Cline Design Associates Economics Management Management & Leadership Marketing Marketing & Sales
Episodes
  • Ep32 Do What You Say You're Going To Do | Daniel Wells & Nathan Sievers

    Ep32 Do What You Say You're Going To Do | Daniel Wells & Nathan Sievers
    Oct 8 2026

    Watch this on YouTube!

    In construction, the unwritten rule is that the lowest bid wins the work. Daniel Wells and Nathan Sievers of Wells & Wells Construction built a multi-state firm on negotiated, repeat business instead.

    In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Daniel Wells, Owner and President of Wells & Wells Construction, and Nathan Sievers, Vice President and Director of Preconstruction, to talk about how a relationship-first philosophy built a nationally recognized general contractor.

    Wells & Wells started in 1989 as a one-person home renovation business and got its first big commercial break because its electrician kept recommending it to a developer. Nearly four decades later, Daniel and Nathan explain how they kept that relationship-first approach while adding the structure needed to grow into new markets. That includes treating subs as part of the team, giving clients an open-book look at costs early in preconstruction, and hiring people who share the firm's values.

    In this episode
    • How a referral from their electrician, not a marketing plan, opened the door to commercial work
    • Why relationships alone weren't enough to grow until the firm added structure
    • Why preconstruction is where a client first forms a real impression of the brand
    • How paying subs on time and banning yelling on site shows up in the finished project
    • Why being the owner's advocate keeps developers coming back without a bid
    • Why Wells & Wells hires for culture fit over résumé

    Key Takeaways
    • In an industry where no-shows are the norm, reliability is a brand. Doing what you say you'll do is enough to set you apart.
    • Reputation is worth paying for. Wells & Wells sometimes spends real money to protect a move-in date, because there may be 300 students moving in, but there are 600 parents to answer to.
    • Best value beats best number. Sometimes that means recommending a more expensive plumber when the low bid doesn't look right, and sometimes it means trusting the low bidder because they've earned it.
    • Values on a wall mean nothing if leaders don't model them. Character shows up when there's a problem or when money is on the line, and teams learn by watching how their leaders react.
    • Nathan's pick, Extreme Ownership, reflects his belief that every leader, whether leading a team or just themselves, should ask what they could have done better.
    • Daniel's picks are about mindset: No Easy Day for pushing through hard moments, and The Millionaire Next Door for not judging customers by appearances.

    Resource and References

    • Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership
    • No Easy Day by Mark Owen with Kevin Maurer: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/312085/no-easy-day-by-mark-owen
    • The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/998.The_Millionaire_Next_Door

    Learn more about Wells & Wells Construction: https://www.wellsandwells.com
    Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

    Connect With Us

    Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

    Learn More about TOKY & Cline

    Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com
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    46 mins
  • Ep31 Design That Transforms Communities | David Nejelski

    Ep31 Design That Transforms Communities | David Nejelski
    Sep 28 2026

    Watch the video on YouTube!

    Most young architects dream of buildings that change the world, and casinos rarely make that list. David Nejelski spent 30 years proving that the right casino can transform an entire community.

    In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with David Nejelski, Vice President, Creative Director, and Principal at TBE Architects, to explore how three decades of designing casino resorts with tribal nations turned into a lesson about listening, trust, and impact.

    David started at TBE as an intern and quickly moved into conceptual design when his hand sketching caught the eye of the firm's design director. Over 30 years, he has helped tribes across North America build properties that function as economic engines while honoring the culture behind them. He shares why his team walks in without preconceived ideas, how the industry moved from themed fantasy environments to energy and experience, and why the most rewarding projects are the ones where the client pushes back the most.

    In this episode

    • Why a casino's first job is to be an economic engine for the tribe
    • How to weave in cultural heritage without falling into stereotypes
    • Why guest convenience and operational efficiency aren't at odds
    • How tribal clients have evolved from first-time developers to sophisticated operators
    • Why no design idea is sacred, and how iteration breaks you out of chasing perfection
    • When a niche firm should stay focused and when it should chase new opportunities

    Key Takeaways

    • Repeat clients come from not showing up with a prepackaged idea. When you ask what the client wants and help them realize it, even when you'd have advised otherwise, you build relationships that last decades.
    • The goal isn't a monument to yourself. David's team says "we" instead of "I" because the design belongs to the client, and the real skill is hearing what they mean, not just what they say.
    • Cultural expression works best when it's felt, not shouted. Abstracting stories and meaning into arrival sequences and public spaces honors heritage without turning a resort into a museum or a stereotype.
    • Guest convenience is the guest experience. If it's a hassle to park, get inside, or find services, guests will go somewhere else, so smart design serves the operation and the visitor at the same time.
    • Know what you want to be the best at, and keep your head up. David points to podcasts like My First Million for the entrepreneurial mindset his partners value: stick to your core values, and don't let the next opportunity pass you by.

    Resource and References

    • The Joe Rogan Experience: https://www.joerogan.com/
    • My First Million podcast: https://www.mfmpod.com/

    Learn more about TBE Architects: https://www.tbearchitects.com/
    Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

    Connect With Us

    Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

    Learn More about TOKY & Cline

    Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com
    Show More Show Less
    53 mins
  • Ep30 Sell Relationships Not Products | Amanda Payne

    Ep30 Sell Relationships Not Products | Amanda Payne
    Sep 10 2026
    Watch the video on YouTubeFor decades, business development in engineering firms played second fiddle to the technical work. Amanda Payne built a career proving that wrong.In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Amanda Payne, Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, to talk about what happens when a firm treats business development as a peer discipline to its engineering work, not a support function bolted on after the fact.Amanda started in architecture school at Drury University, spent five years defending hand-drawn designs in studio crits, and eventually realized that training was better preparation for business development than for a desk job. She walks us through her rise from business development manager to the H&S board table, why she thinks 100% employee ownership is an underused trust signal with clients, and why too many BD directors get left out of the room where growth targets actually get set.In this episodeWhy studio crits and all-nighters in architecture school turned out to be Amanda's real training for a career in business developmentAmanda's clear line between marketing and business development — and why blurring the two is her biggest pet peeveHow Horner & Shifrin's 100% employee ownership becomes a trust signal in front of clients, not just an internal detailWhy business development directors belong in strategic planning meetings, not just deal roomsThe leadership lessons Amanda carried from chairing the SMPS St. Louis chapter into her seat on H&S's boardHow the AEC industry has changed for women in business development, and where it still has work to doKey TakeawaysClients respond to an ESOP once it's explained to them — ownership signals that everyone at the firm has a stake in getting the work right, not just an HR detail.The instinct to present and defend your own work under pressure, built in architecture school, transfers directly to business development.Amanda pushed to have business development represented in strategic planning conversations. If BD isn't in the room, the growth plan and the pipeline stop lining up.Leading a volunteer board (SMPS St. Louis) taught Amanda how to delegate and trust a team, a lesson she carries into her seat on H&S's board today.Amanda's book pick, Leading Change by John Kotter, reinforced a leadership style that lets people stumble and learn rather than micromanaging every step.Resource and ReferencesLeading Change by John P. Kotter: https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Change-New-Preface-Author/dp/1422186431Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: https://lemonadamedia.com/show/wiser-than-me-with-julia-louis-dreyfus/Learn more about Horner & Shifrin: https://www.hornershifrin.com/ Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.comAbout Amanda PayneAmanda Payne is Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, where she leads business development strategy for the firm. She has over 15 years working in business development and marketing within the AEC industry, with a career built on reorganizing business development and marketing strategies, improving efficiency and win rates, managing large-scale project proposals, and cultivating the client relationships that turn into long-term partnerships.Amanda's leadership extends beyond her role at Horner & Shifrin through her active involvement in professional and community organizations. She has chaired corporate United Way campaigns, volunteered in support of Mercy Hospital special events, and serves on the committee for St. Louis KIDstruction, a fundraising initiative benefiting St. Louis Children's Hospital. Amanda has also held leadership positions with Commercial Real Estate Women (CREW) St. Louis and the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) St. Louis Chapter, where she has served on the Board of Directors and as Chapter President. Amanda brings a unique viewpoint to conversations about client and employee experience, having spent her career on both relationship building with clients and helping shape internal culture and strategic initiatives. She lives in the St. Louis area with her husband, JR, and their three children.#Horner&Shifrin #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategyConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com
    Show More Show Less
    48 mins
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