Jared Correia kicks us off by tackling the "razor's edge" of associate management: how do you train attorneys to be rainmakers without accelerating their departure to start a competing firm? Jared argues that withholding professional development is a losing game and suggests a joint strategy of "firm-sanctioned" self-promotion—leveraging associate content for SEO/AEO backlinks while providing "swimming lessons" in networking through partner-led mentorship.

In the interview, we bring on Ron Latz, founder of Legal Fenix, who shares his journey from playing college hockey and touring in a synth-metal band to becoming a "fractional CMO" for law firms. Ron explains why he launched Legal Fenix to stop the "blame pie" between firms and agencies, emphasizing a "People, Process, Technology" order of operations. We also dive into the "Fenix" merger with Rob Williams (Elevamp), the complexities of HubSpot vs. Legal CRMs, and the critical importance of data hygiene in tracking everything from Marketing Qualified Leads (MQL) to total acquisition costs . Finally, Ron finds himself facing the "Like The Fenix" comeback trivia, proving he might need a refresher on Rocky Balboa.

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• (00:00) - Intro: The Associate Hiring Tightrope
• (01:04) - The Risk of Training Future Competitors
• (03:01) - Developing People Without "Arresting Development"
• (04:02) - Joint Authorship: Leveraging SEO & AEO Backlinks
• (04:50) - Marketing Mentors: The "Swimming Lesson" Model
• (05:47) - Learning from Associates: Using Gen Z as a Focus Group
• (08:40) - Interview: Ron Latz’s Origin Story
• (09:33) - College Hockey and the "Beer League" Reality
• (11:26) - "Up In Arms": The Synth-Metal Band Days
• (14:06) - School of Hard Knocks: The 15-Year Evolution of Legal SEO
• (15:06) - Launching Legal Fenix: Cutting Up the "Blame Pie"
• (17:10) - What is a Fractional CMO?
• (20:11) - The "Agnostic" Agency Rule: No Kickbacks or Commissions
• (21:14) - The Dream Team: Rob Williams (Elevamp) Joins Legal Fenix
• (23:54) - Why Everyone Should Start with the Piano
• (25:14) - HubSpot vs. LeadDocket: Customization vs. Complexity
• (26:57) - Order of Operations: People, Process, then Technology
• (30:47) - The Data Hygiene Crisis: "Garbage In, Garbage Out"
• (32:34) - Defining Metrics: MQL, IQL, and "Wanted" Leads
• (35:15) - Blended vs. Channel-Specific Acquisition Costs
• (38:55) - Counter Program: "Like The Fenix" Comeback Trivia
• (40:35) - The Rocky Balboa/Bernard Hopkins Confusion
• (46:26) - The Inventor of the Minivan: Lee Iacocca
• (46:47) - The Gordie Howe Hat Trick
• (47:40) - Outro: The "Special" Spotify Playlist

Jared Correia’s "Travels with Jared" series takes us to King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, where the history of George Washington’s winter encampment at Valley Forge meets the rampant consumerism of the third-largest mall in America. Jared recounts his confusing excursion to the "Netflix House"—a theme-park-style entertainment complex that feels like "Satan vomited up the physical embodiment of a streaming service"—and explains why he left with a stuffed Demogorgon and a profound sense of being an "elder millennial" .

The interview features the return of Megan Hargroder, founder of Legends Legal Marketing, who discusses reaching the milestone of her 20th employee and her brutal "Hunger Games" style hiring process for search managers. The core of the conversation focuses on the shift from traditional SEO to Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) and Generative Engine Optimization (GEO). Megan breaks down why Large Language Models (LLMs) like ChatGPT and Claude prioritize "trust-based marketing" and authentic storytelling over high-volume, AI-generated spam. They also discuss her new book, Trust is the Strategy, and endure a "Legal Late Night AEO Interview" where Google's AI identifies Megan as a snow leopard and a wandering monk of digital nomadism.

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• (00:00) - Travels with Jared: The "KOP" and Frederick the Great
• (02:50) - Valley Forge vs. The King of Prussia Mall
• (04:53) - People Love Arches: The Memorial Arch and Patriots Bell Tower
• (06:03) - The Netflix House: An Elder Millennial’s Fever Dream
• (09:22) - Interview Start: Megan Hargroder and Toenail Clippers
• (11:00) - AI Heartbreak: The Callous ChatGPT Text Message
• (12:22) - Employee #20 and the Paid Search "Hunger Games"
• (16:49) - Entering the Era of AEO and GEO (AI Search)
• (19:22) - Why AI Engines Prefer Trust-Based Marketing and Brands
• (22:17) - The Power of Context: Keywords in Client Reviews
• (23:19) - Different Algorithms: Gemini vs. Google Search AI (SGE)
• (26:57) - Breaking Up with Clients Over 200 AI Blogs Per Month
• (30:47) - Local SEO: The Case for Manual Directory Listings
• (33:12) - Brand Consistency: Why You Should Never Make a Second Logo
• (35:12) - The Future of Paid Ads in Generative AI
• (38:14) - Book Pitch: "Trust is the Strategy"
• (40:23) - Counter Program: The Wired-Style AEO Interview
• (42:38) - AI Identifies Megan as a Snow Leopard
• (44:41) - Founding a Religion: The Path of Radial Trust
• (47:44) - The Jeep Wrangler vs. The Public Transit Dream
• (50:01) - Johnny Cash Coyotes and Louisiana Outlaws
• (53:04) - Outro & This Week's Playlist: Pennsylvania Rain

Jared Correia tackles the "Bill Lumberg" problem in the legal industry: micromanagement. Jared explores how managing attorneys can find a balance between oversight and obsession by leveraging modern case management and workflow tools to "observe without being menacing" .

Next, the show features a rare "double guest" interview with Dean Whalen, Chief Legal Officer of ReadBack, and John Skelton, Partner at Seyfarth Shaw, LLP. In an incredible trip down memory lane, John Skelton shares the inside story of how he helped keep the New England Patriots in Foxboro in 1993 by leveraging a unique stadium lease to block a move to St. Louis .

The conversation dives deep into the future of litigation with ReadBack, an AI-based deposition software that provides "real-time" text to attorneys. John and Dean discuss the massive competitive advantages of real-time transcripts, including the ability to catch non-responsive answers in the moment and search Q&A while the witness is still on the record. Finally, the trio revisits the 1980s in the Counter Program for a high-stakes round of "Guess the Next Lyric," where Dean reveals his surprisingly deep knowledge of Janet Jackson trivia.

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We're grateful to be supported by CallRail, Attorney at Work Today, and Lawyer 2 Lawyer.

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• (00:00) - Intro: Micromanagement and Bill Lumberg
• (01:04) - The Neurosis of Legal Management
• (02:08) - Oversight vs. Obsession: The Balance
• (03:08) - Using Workflows to Monitor Without Being Menacing
• (04:06) - Using Ticklers and Reminders Effectively
• (05:56) - Introducing Dean Whalen and John Skelton
• (07:45) - The St. Anselm College Connection
• (08:38) - Dean Whalen: The Original Host of Legal Toolkit
• (10:16) - John Skelton’s Origin Story: From Police Officer to Law Review
• (12:18) - Bar Prep Rivalries and LSAT Legends
• (14:40) - The Reality of Big Law Grinds and Remote Work
• (15:54) - Saving the Patriots: The 1993 Lease Litigation Story
• (20:10) - Transitioning from Law Practice to Legal Tech
• (22:25) - The Role of Depositions in High-Stakes Litigation
• (25:16) - The Problem with Post-It Notes and Paper Discovery
• (27:09) - Why ReadBack was Developed: Supply, Demand, and Stenographers
• (28:35) - Meet the "Guardians": AI-Based Deposition Oversight
• (32:31) - The Competitive Advantage of "Real-Time" Transcripts
• (36:53) - Rule 28 and the Future of Notary Protocols
• (38:10) - Lessons from the Pandemic: Remote Deposition Efficiency
• (42:45) - AI as a Litigation "Equalizer": Briefs and Outlines
• (44:36) - Counter Program: Guess the Lyric (The Big '80s Edition)
• (49:09) - The Janet Jackson Super Bowl Trivia Story
• (58:55) - Outro & This Week's Playlist: Rain Songs

Jared Correia tackles a topic most attorneys dread: Math. Jared breaks down the three essential types of "covert math" every law firm owner needs to master—Business Math, Data Analytics, and Budgeting—to stop making decisions based on gut feelings and start building a lucrative practice.

Next, Jared is joined by the "Subscription King," Mathew Kerbis, CEO and Co-Founder of Practi.ai. Mathew shares his journey from a philosophy major and insurance defense litigator to building a "Shopify for law firms". They dive deep into the future of the profession, discussing how AI is making hourly billing obsolete and why lawyers must pivot to transparent, value-based pricing.

In this interview, we cover:

• The "0.3" Moment: The realization that led Mathew to abandon the billable hour.
• Practi.ai: How law firms can now offer e-commerce-style legal subscriptions and fixed fees.
• The AI Notebook Future: Using tools like Notebook LM to create curated knowledge bases for clients.
• Market Disruption: Why law firms that don't adapt to AI-driven efficiency will be "screwed".

Finally, in a special Counter Program Double Feature, Mathew quizzes Jared on the history of the billable hour, and Jared fires back with a game of "Unknowable Insatiable Cravings," debating the philosophy of whether cereal is soup

Learn more about Mathew Kerbis and Practi.
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• (00:00) - Intro & Monologue: Important Math for Law Firm Owners
• (01:05) - Why Lawyers Avoid Math (And Why They Shouldn't)
• (02:11) - Business Math & Technical Competency Rules
• (04:10) - Data Analytics: Turning Covert Math into KPIs
• (05:09) - Budgeting & Revenue Projection: The 50K Estate Plan Example
• (08:15) - Interview Start: Meet Mathew Kerbis
• (09:35) - The Mystery of the Single "T" in Mathew
• (11:36) - Origin Story: Mock Trials and Symbolic Logic
• (14:43) - The 0.3 Moment: Leaving Insurance Defense
• (15:31) - Recapping ABA Tech Show: The Google Workspace Advantage
• (18:45) - Becoming "The Subscription Attorney"
• (20:34) - From Coaching to Practi.ai: Productizing the Subscription Model
• (22:12) - Finding a Technical Co-founder via Y Combinator
• (24:29) - What is Practi? (Shopify for Solo & Small Firms)
• (27:48) - Overcoming the Hourly Billing Mindset
• (28:27) - Using Notebook LM for Curated Client Knowledge
• (31:13) - AI Pressure: Why Clients Won't Pay for 2-Hour Tasks
• (33:34) - Savvy Clients and Enterprise Grade AI
• (36:56) - The Go-To-Market Strategy: "Ask Your Lawyer About Practi"
• (39:13) - Counter Program: Double Feature Trivia Introduction
• (40:53) - Flip the Table: Billable Hour History Trivia
• (47:53) - Unknowable Insatiable Cravings: Is a Thumb a Finger?
• (49:12) - Is Cereal Soup? (And the Pop-Tart Ravioli Debate)
• (50:56) - The Straw Hole Philosophy
• (52:11) - Is a Muffin a Bald Cupcake?
• (53:42) - Outro & This Week's Playlist: Cross-Genre Covers

Jared Correia dives into March Madness, breaking down his top five most impactful NCAA Final Four tournaments of all time. From Texas Western breaking Jim Crow-style recruiting in 1966 to the legendary Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird showdown in 1979, Jared explores the history of college basketball's biggest stage.

Next, Jared sits down with Daniel Steinberg, the Founder and CEO of Lawbrokr. Daniel shares his journey from building partnerships at Clio to launching his own legal tech startup. He opens up about the difficult reality of startup pivots, explaining why Lawbrokr shifted away from a consumer-attorney marketplace model to become a dedicated B2B digital intake and marketing solution.

In this interview, we cover:

• The Lawbrokr Pivot: Why the unit economics of building a legal marketplace broke down, and how listening to customer data saved the company.
• The "Leaky Funnel": Why law firms need to stop obsessing over raw website traffic and start focusing on actual web traffic conversion.
• The Human Element: Why the vulnerability of legal consumers means intake processes can never be 100% automated by AI.
• Agency Partnerships: How Lawbrokr partners with marketing agencies to optimize conversions and prove ROI for law firms.

Finally, in the Counter Program, Jared puts Daniel's accounting background to the test in a ridiculous new trivia game called "Boats and Hoes," inspired by the movie Step Brothers.

Learn more about Daniel and Lawbrokr.
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Find more great content at Legal Broadcasting Company
And connect with Jared on LinkedIn.

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• (00:00) - Intro & Monologue: The Best NCAA Final Fours
• (05:27) - #5: The 1991 Rocky Four Final Four (Duke vs. UNLV)
• (07:43) - #4: The 1982 Final Four (Jordan vs. Ewing)
• (11:12) - #3: The 1957 Final Four (UNC's Triple Overtime Wins)
• (12:09) - #2: The 1966 Final Four (Texas Western Breaks Jim Crow Recruiting)
• (15:33) - #1: The 1979 Final Four (Magic vs. Bird)
• (20:58) - Interview Start: Meet Daniel Steinberg of Lawbrokr
• (21:57) - Using ChatGPT as a New Parent
• (24:26) - Daniel's Background: From Tech Sales to Clio Partnerships
• (30:57) - The Impetus for Launching Lawbrokr
• (32:32) - The Hard Pivot: Why the Marketplace Model Broke Down
• (37:37) - Lawbrokr Today: Digital Intake and Web Traffic Conversion
• (38:22) - The Biggest Law Firm Mistake: Ignoring Web Conversions
• (42:21) - Why Legal Intake Will Always Need a Human Touch
• (45:45) - Partnering with Marketing Agencies
• (47:16) - The Value of the Legal Conference Circuit
• (48:46) - What's Next: Lawbrokr Anywhere & Data Transparency
• (51:58) - Counter Program: Boats and Hoes Trivia
• (01:02:11) - Outro & This Week's Playlist

Jared Correia breaks down a massive shift in the legal industry: the rise of Management Services Organizations (MSOs). As private equity finds new ways to invest in the legal space without violating ethics rules, Jared explains how MSOs are restructuring law firms and why every owner needs to pay attention.

Next, Jared is joined by the coolest guest in LLN history, Owen Hemsath (aka Owen Video), CEO of Acceleratus Media. Owen shares his journey from a 10-year stint as a waiter to becoming a YouTube and video marketing powerhouse.

In this interview, we cover:

• Why YouTube is King: Why lawyers should focus on the YouTube/Instagram "one-two punch" rather than chasing TikTok trends.
• The "One Good Thing" Rule: Stop overcomplicating your marketing. Learn why focusing on consistent video content is the best way to build your brand.
• Scripting for Authenticity: How a proper video structure (beginning, middle, and call-to-action) actually allows your true personality to shine.
• Stop Gatekeeping: Why the best strategy is walking clients through the legal processes they fear, rather than creating boring commercials.

Finally, in the Counter Program, Jared tests Owen’s knowledge of his adopted home state in a hilarious game of "S* Utahns Say,"** covering everything from "Fry Sauce" and "Jello Salads" to "NCMOs" (Non-Committal Make-Outs).

Learn more about Owen "Video" Hemsath and Acceleratus Media
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We're actively growing our new podcast network, so check in to find amazing new content.
And check out this week's Spotify Playlist.

We're grateful to be supported by CallRail, Attorney at Work Today, and Lawyer 2 Lawyer.

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• (00:00) - Intro & Monologue: The Modern Day Guild Structure
• (01:53) - Subverting the Ethics Rules: The Rise of ABS and MSOs
• (03:03) - How Private Equity is Funding Law Firm MSOs
• (04:05) - The Pros: Practicing at the Top of Your License
• (05:01) - The Cons: Hollowing Out the Value of Law Firms
• (06:51) - Interview Start: Meet Owen Hemsath (aka Owen Video)
• (08:35) - The Steve Jobs Wardrobe & On-Camera Branding
• (10:27) - The Origin of "Owen Video" & Avoiding the Paparazzi
• (12:09) - The Origin Story: From Waiter to Multimedia Expert
• (15:51) - Why Video is the Ultimate Social Media Dominator
• (17:43) - Don't DIY: Why You Need a Content Strategy
• (19:35) - Scripting for Authenticity: Start, Middle, Stop
• (22:19) - The YouTube/Instagram One-Two Punch
• (24:23) - Long-Form vs. Short-Form: What Works Best?
• (27:25) - Why Owen Left TikTok (Despite 100M Views)
• (29:37) - ROI vs. Vanity Metrics: Designing Shows, Not Just Videos
• (31:45) - Building Video Confidence from Scratch
• (36:53) - Stop Gatekeeping Your Knowledge (And Stop Fearing Competitors)
• (38:41) - The Move to Utah: The Second Hollywood
• (41:54) - Counter Program: S*** Utahns Say
• (43:33) - Utah Slang: Fry Sauce
• (45:33) - Utah Slang: Sloughing Off
• (46:34) - Utah Slang: Dirty Soda
• (48:25) - Utah Slang: Oh My Heck
• (50:06) - Utah Food: The Jello Salad
• (51:24) - Utah Food: Funeral Potatoes
• (52:49) - Utah Slang: The Jockey Box
• (54:53) - Utah Slang: NCMO (Non-Committal Make-Out)
• (56:53) - Outro & This Week's Playlist

Jared Correia challenges law firms to move beyond boilerplate policies and embrace a tech-centric approach to process management. Later, he sits down with Matt Rubin, the "Mr. Marketing" himself, to discuss the volatile history of SEO and why Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) is set to absorb 30% of the search market by the end of the year.

In this episode, we cover:

• The Procedural Challenge: Why your law firm's manual shouldn't just be a "dusty shiv" for HR emergencies, but a living guide yoked to your technology stack.
• Matt Rubin's Rollercoaster Career: From making millions in mortgage marketing to working as a $13/hour leasing consultant during the 2008 crash, and eventually founding his own agency with two (soon to be three) patents.
• The Future of Search: How AEO and AI tools like Gemini and ChatGPT are changing discovery for lawyers.
• Personalized Advertising: Why dynamic ads tied to your CRM data are the ultimate competitive advantage for small firms.

Finally, stay tuned for the "Shitty Olympics" in our Counter Program, where Jared tests Matt's knowledge of bizarre historical Winter Olympic sports like Ski Ballet and Skijuring.

Learn more about THE Mr. Marketing, Matt Rubin.
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We're actively growing our new podcast network, so check in to find amazing new content.
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• (00:00) - Intro: Policies and Procedures Manuals
• (01:25) - The "Dusty Shiv": Moving Beyond Boilerplate Policies
• (02:27) - Rebuilding Procedures Around Your Technology Stack
• (03:24) - Documenting Automation, Email, and Even the Candy Dish
• (04:24) - Process Management: The Key to Productive Onboarding
• (06:14) - Interview Start: Meet Matt Rubin of Mr. Marketing
• (08:07) - The Origin of the "Mr. Marketing" Nickname
• (10:01) - Career Volatility: Millions in Mortgages to $13/Hour
• (13:23) - Navigating Google’s Animal Updates (Panda & Penguin)
• (16:40) - Dynamic Content Optimization: Matt’s Patents
• (18:02) - AEO (Answer Engine Optimization) vs. Traditional SEO
• (18:42) - Why AI Search Will Absorb 30% Market Share This Year
• (19:47) - Why Advertising Still Trumps Passive Search
• (21:54) - The Role of Google Reviews in the Buying Decision
• (23:40) - Why You Can’t Automate Human Emotion in Reviews
• (28:35) - Personalized Advertising: The Future of Real-Time Ads
• (34:19) - Marketing War Stories: The Russian Mob and 3 AM Calls
• (38:32) - Counter Program: The Shitty Olympics (Winter Edition)
• (40:26) - Real or Fake? Military Patrol and Ice Pogo
• (42:44) - The Reality of Ski Ballet and Ski Jouring
• (45:33) - Synchronized Snow Angels & Frozen Pole Vault
• (46:50) - Bandy: Russian Hockey with Balls
• (48:16) - Outro & This Week's Olympic Playlist

Jared Correia takes us on a psychedelic tour of Memphis before diving into the complex world of tax optimization for business owners.

First, in the monologue, Jared recaps his "mind-f***" trip to Graceland. From the Jungle Room’s porcelain monkeys and a bright yellow-and-black TV room to Elvis’s Gatorade-stocked private jets, Jared explains why the King’s estate is essentially "Redneck Disney World"—a 14-acre compound built to the god of capitalism.

Then, Jared sits down with Megan Robin, owner of Megan Robin Law. Megan holds an LLM in Tax Law and explains how she fills the "multidisciplinary gap" for law firm owners.

In this interview, we discuss:

• The Conventional Retirement Trap: Why aggressive 401k saving might not make sense for high-earning "knowledge workers" who peak later in life.
• The CFO Gap: Why your $500-per-return accountant likely isn't providing proactive tax strategy.
• Real Estate vs. Wall Street: The hidden conflict of interest in Assets Under Management (AUM) fees and why your advisor might be steering you away from property investments.
• Niching for Lawyers: Why Megan focuses on the unique entrepreneurial mindset of law firm owners.

Finally, stick around for a new segment: "Taxing Myths and Legends." Jared tests Megan on the weirdest taxes in human history. Find out which are real—from the Ancient Roman urine tax to the 19th-century Ohio squirrel scalp tax.

Learn more about Megan Robin.
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And check out our unique Spotify playlist for this episode.

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• (00:00) - Intro & Monologue: Travels with Jared in Search of America
• (03:12) - Rolling up to Graceland: Staggering Cultural Relevance
• (04:02) - "Redneck Disney World": 14 Acres of Rock and Roll
• (04:54) - Inside the House: The Jungle Room & Porcelain Monkeys
• (06:32) - The Mind-F***: Graves off the Pool & Private Jets
• (08:15) - Pink Cadillacs, Jumpsuits, and Lilo & Stitch
• (09:11) - The TCB Band (Taking Care of Business)
• (11:31) - Interview Start: Megan Robin, Queen of Tax Planning
• (13:26) - Origin Story: Inspired by a Farm-Born Grandmother
• (14:44) - Why Get an LLM in Tax? Real-World Tangible Results
• (17:19) - Fusing Personal Finance & Tax Optimization
• (19:28) - Elementary School Currencies: The Unemployable Entrepreneur
• (21:19) - Niching Down: Why Tax Law for Attorneys?
• (22:57) - The Discovery Call: Incentives, P&Ls, and Fit
• (25:35) - Tax Myth #1: The Trap of Post-Tax Retirement Vehicles
• (28:14) - Tax Myth #2: Your Accountant is Transactional, Not a CFO
• (30:08) - Tax Strategy During Government Disarray
• (33:37) - Scaling Laws: When Systems Break at $1M
• (35:04) - Vulnerability & Money: Stocks, Bonds, and Honesty
• (37:39) - Real Estate & The Hidden Risk of AUM Fees
• (41:26) - Counter Program: Taxing Myths and Legends
• (47:12) - Real or Fake? The Roman Urine Tax
• (48:22) - Peter the Great’s Beard Tax
• (50:31) - The destructive Ohio Squirrel Scalp Tax
• (51:47) - Medieval England’s Window Tax
• (53:41) - Outro & The Elvis Spotify Playlist