This month’s episode of Samsara Audio features a conversation with (PhD, Columbia) who writes about continental philosophy, science, and the book of Genesis at her Substack. Cleo has taught and published for decades about the psychology of religion, the anthropology of ritual, and the reading of the Abrahamic Scriptures. Cleo is a sister in Christ and an esteemed colleague, so I’m particularly delighted to share this conversation with you.

Right out of the gate we get to hear Cleo’s critiques of Rene Girard, before we transition to explore the virgin Mary’s sacrifice and her role in overseeing Christ’s passage from the imaginary to the symbolic. Cleo deftly guides us through a theory of sacrifice, as well as through the differences between the priest and the shaman, including her belief that the prophet is a sub-type of the shaman. Finally, she briefly provokes us with a suggestion about Deleuze’s value for theological work.

I highly recommend Cleo’s book The Virgin Mary, Monotheism, and Sacrifice.

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Time Stamps:

00:00 Intro

01:53 Critiquing Girard: Delving into Mimetic Theory and Sacrifice

06:58 Marian Sacrifice vs. Abrahamic Sacrifice: A Theological Exploration

15:38 Mary's Role and Theology: A Deep Dive into Marian Dogmas

23:46 Vatican II and Its Impact on Catholic Doctrine

31:18 Ecumenical Dialogues and Personal Journeys of Faith

38:52 Exploring Liturgical Energy and Sacrifice

39:06 The Role of Sacraments and Liturgy Across Traditions

40:43 Diving Into Theology: Eucharist and Church Divides

42:37 Anthropological Perspectives on Sacrifice

45:04 The Symbolic and the Real: Navigating Tradition

52:07 Mary's Role and the Question of Sacrifice

57:07 Shamanism and Ritual: A Personal Journey

59:27 Shamanism vs. Priesthood: Understanding Different Roles

01:07:06 The Challenge of Sharing Esoteric Insights

01:11:42 Deleuze's Contribution to Theological Thought

01:17:33 Final Thoughts and Future Conversations